<Begin Segment 21>

AI: And I, I think you did mention some of this earlier in our interviewing, but if you could say a little bit more about the red-baiting assignments?

EH: The red-baiting assignments? Oh, I don't know. I think it was normal kinds of suspicion, or criticism about the government, anything that the government did.

AI: And Ralph had some assignments that he was given as part of his journalism...

EH: Uh-huh. Classes, (yes). It was constant. It was every day, and he just got sick of it. Because he knew there was more to learn besides being anti-Communist. But this city was really that kind of -- it was kind of an influence over the whole community. There were many pop-, we went, we became active at the Church of the People... I think we were married there. So that was in '50, it may have started in '4-, I was working at the YMCA, and because of the same kind of red-baiting scare, that church was kind of labeled a Communist, or people were suspicious that there were Communists in... and even if there were, it wasn't going to bother the church. They would, they would not let them, they would not kick them out and that kind of thing. So it became kind of a notorious... and conservatives would label that church, so when we got married there -- and I was working for the YMCA, and they were being invited to the wedding, I could hear them kind of halfway joking about, "You think it's safe? Suppose So-and-so finds out." Meaning supervisory people. And I had to say, "Hey, look, you guys, if you're, if you don't want to come, you sure don't have to come. Don't feel like you're (going to) sacrifice," and then they'd say, "Oh, we're just joking." And I'd think halfway to myself, "You're not joking, you're really scared." 'Cause they were part of YMCA, and YMCA was conservative enough to discourage attending a leftist area like that.

AI: So that's interesting to me, because it sounds like it, in a way, they were, they were actually rather worried about, that they might be labeled as a Communist sympathizer for attending a wedding at this church, whereas they, they weren't too concerned about the fact that they were attending a wedding that was interracial.

EH: Oh, (yes), I don't think, I think that was kind of intriguing and exciting for our friends. But that wasn't going to... we were in a circle that weren't, weren't (going to) let that stop our association. I think it was kind of, in some respects, a bit of pride that they had us among their crowd, that kind of thing. You know the name Andy Shiga? Who used to have a gift shop on the Avenue, his wife still runs it. Andy was an early member of the Church of the People, but he was... I remember being at a party where he, Andy was, and Connie Honda's -- I think maybe Connie Honda's house, and we took Larry, and it was a fun kind of, naive in many ways. I mean, my kids would say, "God. No drinks, no nothing?" Well, of course not. I don't think we were even drinking beer at that point. But everybody enjoyed themselves. Of course, Connie had a black friend, girlfriend. Ultimately, she married a black guy, and I don't think it lasted long. We used to correspond to some extent, decades and decades ago. But Andy, on the other hand, was a conscientious objector, and was in a circle also, that he wouldn't have cared if they were Communists or not. And some, some people would lean that way.

I'm not sure -- it was funny, I remember ACLU wanted the minister to come to their national, go to their national convention representing Seattle. But ACLU could not afford to have anybody who was labeled "Communist," or espousing Communist membership kind of issues, to represent them. That just would not be allowed. And, but Fred Shorter was the kind of guy -- he didn't feel he had to sign anything, that you didn't have to sign where you're a member of the church or a member of... not a member, and he would not sign. And so then that naturally aroused suspicion with some people. "Wow," you know, "do you suppose he really is a Communist?" I just knew Fred wasn't (going to) -- he was a Socialist, he was a pacifist, and he had taken trips to, to Russia, but that didn't label him as a Communist. He might have been, to some extent, a sympathizer for Socialist ideas. It was funny because ultimately, he went, and so we, we used to chuckle among the young people's young adults group, "Wow, somebody succeeded and got him, got him to sign, because he, he wouldn't have gone, he couldn't have gone if he didn't."

AI: Well, to --

EH: It's funny, when we joined that church, Fred Shorter used to follow Ralph around to make him sign as a member. And Ralph would say, "Look, Fred, St. Peter isn't going to keep me out of heaven or keep anybody else out of heaven just because we didn't sign." He said, "You're not (going to) make me sign, either." He just, though again, at some point, Ralph must have signed because he was chairman of the forum board at... we used to have a weekly forum, and, Sunday afternoon forum. That's funny, 'cause I don't remember Ralph -- I think they had board meetings, planning meetings that I don't ever remember Ralph having to contact anybody to be a speaker of the board. But it was a good nucleus church, fifty, sixty, seventy members.

AI: Well, to kind of remind people about that, the era of the anti-Communism, I think it was 1951 when the Rosenburgs were convicted of, of conspiracy to commit espionage, and both of them, Ethel and Julius were then sentenced to death. Was that something that was, that was shocking to you? That...

EH: Oh, I think, I think we probably did analyze the system, and these forums were a good mind-stretching and searching. I don't know that, I think we were keenly interested, but I don't know that we voted any one way or another. We had people like Bayard Ruston, who traveled a lot, and seems to me we had Salk, the doctor. Who was it that was the vitamin C, big pusher of vitamin C? But anyway, I remember he was... and we had, we had people who came from, from the Bay Area.

<End Segment 21> - Copyright © 2004 Densho. All Rights Reserved.