<Begin Segment 58>

AI: Well, you know, I had asked you, in, when you and Ralph were dating, how you were perceived or accepted by the Japanese American community. But I'm also interested to know how you as an interracial couple were perceived or treated by the black community at that time, in those early years.

EH: Well, the black community always has been openly cordial. And I, I think that comes from black communities wanting experience besides themselves. I mean, it's a new experience and they want that experience. My working to open daycare centers corrected that. And there's always going to be some problem people, but you can't let that stop you. I, I had a couple of Nisei teachers hired, and it just proved to me that it depends on your setting. They may not ever have had to work with blacks, or they may never have worked with blacks prior or since then. But they certainly got along all right in the centers while they were working as Head Start people. And I think that's probably true of, of anybody that takes -- I mean, they have to get along, though I will say that in Sacramento, one of my favorite people who worked with me as the Family Life instructor in the preschool co-op field in the early '60s, had to leave Seattle, and her husband eventually landed a job at Sacramento State, so they were living in Sacramento. And she became head of early childhood in, for the state office, and the state capital happens to be in Sacramento. And when, when I was -- I think I was at a church, eighty-fifth anniversary or something, dinner, and catching up with all my friends, and I said to this person -- she, she told me she was working in the, for the state in the early childhood education department. And (I) said, "Oh, your boss is So-and-so, she's a friend of mine." And she says, "(Yes), but you know, she's a kuro-chan." And that just rankled me, because I knew this person dearly, and she, I, even in Seattle, everybody misses, missed her when she moved to Sacramento. And she was just the greatest person, and here she was the head of a state department, and my friend wasn't accepting her. I mean, she was, she was her boss, the highest person in that state level, and there was another friend who was a Head Start nurse --

AI: Excuse me. I wanted to just clarify for people who don't understand that term, what, what it means, and the tone of it.

EH: Well, I wish there was a conventional -- [laughs] -- way of explaining. I think it's, certainly a belittling name, it's, I think worse than when somebody calls a black person "Sam," which they used to do, decades ago. I don't know that there's anything in English comparable to that. "Pickaninny?" I don't know. "Boy," probably very close to "boy." But if people can't respect and recognize the ability and dignity of, of a fine leader, and just the right person in a state office, I don't know. I mean, I think those are the terms that I, times that I think we need a dialogue and we need some education, no matter what the group is. I'm sure, hopefully it's changing. This was probably '75 or '80... hopefully time has passed enough that, and awareness that that name just does not, is not appropriate. I had a Head Start nurse who worked for the same department and knew this great person, and she was, she was a JACL president at one time, in Sacramento. And when I told her, I didn't tell her the name or who it was, but I said, "Boy, that kind of term is still being used, just bothers the hell out of me." And she agreed. And her attitude was, "Well, what can you do about it?" And feeling like you have to give up, and I said, "I don't think, I don't think we should or... give up. We need to battle that kind of thing."

But I guess I have to say, Sacramento is sometimes a little provincial. And I think that's because they don't have -- their jobs are secure. Once they get into the state office, and so politically they don't get involved, and I don't know community-wise how well they do. I think the churches, maybe, hopefully the churches are getting a little bit more integrated, and if that happens, I think that's helpful. At Blaine Methodist, there was a black guy in the neighborhood who joined Blaine, and who happened to be a former public health staffperson. And so I was glad to see that, and, and he's filling a valuable place, he was a sanitarian, so he, every time there's a fundraising, sukiyaki dinner, bazaar or whatever, he makes sure that everything is spic-and-span, where it should be. But (yes), this whole issue is... I think with older Niseis, it may be, hopefully now with Sanseis, that it, it isn't... but the, the psychology must, might still be, I think men have a problem with that, the Nisei men.

I think the other issue that never gets brought up is that, that the segregated, in the segregated army, the 442nd -- and I don't know what the black group was called -- they, they fought side-by-side, and you never hear that. I only heard that for the first time when... well, I read it in a book. (Narr. note: Lasting Valor by Vernon Baker.) One of the black Medal, was it Medal of Honor guy by the name of (Baker), Vernon (Baker), I think, writes about -- he was here at a book signing thing and I didn't know it. I, we were coming to hear, to hear the next speaker, and I just saw him still signing books and a long line waiting. So I just went up to see what his book was about, and I thought, "Wow, this looks great; I have to get one." So when I, I went to buy the book from him, he asked me if I was a Nisei, and I said, "(Yes)," and he said, "I want you to read page so-and-so." And I did, and he talks about his experience of going to Washington, D.C., when Muneo... what was that first Medal of Honor Nisei fellow -- gets honored in D.C. And this is decades ago, shortly after World War II. He, he goes up to say to his mother, "If Muneo hadn't been there and jumped on that grenade, I would not be here to thank you." And that's when you recognize that they were fighting side-by-side.

At, lately, Senator Inouye says in... I forgot what program that was. But he said that, that he was describing the numbers of times he was injured, and in those days, you had blood transfusions right there in the field. And, and said, "If I, those black guys hadn't been willing to line up, I may not be here." I, I don't understand that, because I thought you had to have a certain kind of blood, your blood types had to match. But he said on this television program, "So I have blood, black blood in me." And I thought, "Wow, that kind of information, for some reason, never comes out." You don't hear that, certainly from the, the old Nisei veterans. Never did I hear that. When, when we had the... there was a commemoration for, maybe it was the signing... no, it was about two or three years ago. Senator Inouye was there and I, I said, "Thank you for making that comment on that program." And by golly he, in his little speech that he was, he prepared, he included the fact that the, that, "We need, we were fighting side-by-side together." And because the commemoration had to do with evacuation, there were a lot of Niseis there. But I thought how significant that these guys never, to that, to my knowledge, never admit to that.

That, that commemoration bugged me, because the chancellor was a guy by the name of Peter Ku. He's just retired, but the place was packed. It was a hot summer day, and a lot of those people that were there would be very familiar with Charlie Mitchell, who was president of Central Community College. Central had just gotten the award from Time magazine or somewhere, the number one college of the country, because apparently they had done a lot of innovative things. And I just felt that Charlie Mitchell was a Garfield graduate kind of growing up out of the ghettos as much as we know, and I think Ralph was still at Garfield. I remember watching Charlie Mitchell, and we never missed a Garfield game, and he, he was able to go straight through the UW and, I think, I thought he got picked up by a pro team. Maybe not, but anyway, he went on to get his Ph.D., and you know, and I thought, here's this massive Nisei audience, with a college that got the, the number one rating for the country, and coming from a neighbor school like Garfield. You know, Central Community used to be Broadway Edison. And a lot of the guys that were there would at least remember if they didn't attend there. But it was too bad that Peter Ku didn't allow Charlie Mitchell to give a greeting and a welcome. And, and be able to say, "Here's a neighbor who grew up right in our midst." And I, I thought to myself, "You know, a lot of these Niseis don't appreciate anything much except football." I mean, if it was about football, and Garfield, it would register. And, and I thought that, I thought that was tragic, because I think maybe if he was not a foreign-reared person, that that might have registered. And, and again, that's a situation of, I think you have to grab every moment you can to bridge gaps. And, and change the (course) of the thinking process. But you know, if you're a leader, that's maybe what you're supposed to do as an educator. And I wondered if he knew what the, the conservative-ness of older Niseis were. Particularly when it comes to black issues. Because that's, that's a problem that I think it, it's (going to) persist as long as some of those old guys are around. And they pass it on to their children.

<End Segment 58> - Copyright © 2004 Densho. All Rights Reserved.