<Begin Segment 35>

AI: Excuse me, what, let's talk about the conference, because you've mentioned it a couple of times, and I was wondering when was that -- and if you could just tell all about how it came about that you were even allowed to go out of camp. When, was this in 1943?

EH: No, no. Forty... well, let's see. (Yes), '43, you're right. It was about April, April of '43. And Ayako Miyazaki was kind of an advisor kind of person. She, she was probably five or six years older than I was. Sada Murayama was a real, leadership kind of person, and probably in her fifties. A Nisei, bilingual, thoroughly. I think she had married somebody from Japan. But, I, her husband was not in camp and I, I don't know what... she had a daughter, Constance, was a bright person, probably went to one of the big five women's colleges on the East Coast. But Sada was a very analytical but socially motivated and concerned about typical group process, and looking toward the future. The kind of potential... I hope I can find these pictures. I'll have to share 'em and make duplicates. But it was a good occasion, and by that time of the year, there were enough people going in and out of camp. For one thing, the men, who took labor jobs on farms because farmers were really -- immediately before Tule Lake got well-organized, by December, there were people leaving.

AI: For, leaving for temporary work.

EH: (Yes). There's a book called Sleeping on Potatoes. Do you know that? Oh. That's, that (has) a good sense of what life was like early. But, so the three of us, and Aya kept telling me, "You need to go on and finish and get a social work degree, and you need to be continuing to do this." But actually, when -- and we did stop at Tule Lake -- I mean, at Minidoka, and visit there for --

AI: Well, so excuse me, before we get there, so this conference is part of a regular YWCA conferences that --

EH: Regional, regional conferences.

AI: -- that happen around the country, and because you weren't allowed to, of course, you couldn't go to the West Coast, what happened? Did you get an invitation to go to this regional conference in Idaho?

EH: (Yes), you know, the Sacramento YW knew what I was doing, and Jacoby, Joyce Jacoby probably knew about it. You know, an organization like YW has worldwide plans and announcements, conferences and dates and all costs, and I wouldn't be surprised, but Joyce must have gotten one of those. And having been a YW person, personnel, she would have known about the amount. And they were very eager to hear about what camp was like.

AI: So, what, did you take a bus?

EH: (Yes). No, let's see...

AI: Or drive?

EH: (Yes), I think we did take a bus. You know, it might have even been a Greyhound. When I left camp, I know I think I took a Greyhound and went to Reno, and Pocatello is probably equal distance of what Reno was.

AI: Pocatello is kind of in the southern portion of Idaho.

EH: (Yes), (yes).

AI: And so you, you took the bus up there.

EH: (Yes), and you know, we had all our rooms and fees paid for by other people, so that wasn't an issue. It was kind of exciting to meet somebody else from another camp, which had not -- that wasn't that common. These were Portland, basically Portland people. And I don't, well, there was a Pat Shitama, I must have met (her) at that (conference). And Pat's a Seattle person. But anyway, and Pat maybe is a year younger than I am. I don't think she was doing YWCA. I don't know, they had similar kinds of organ-, they had organized in Minidoka, I think, by the time this happened.

One of the things I did in Tule Lake was call a mother's meeting, because I just felt that the mothers needed to know what the girls were doing and what some of us were concerned about. And a lot of the rural women had never had the opportunity of attending any kind of group experience. Though there are fujinkai, which are women's organizations, in every church. And if you're not a churchgoing person, or if you -- I'm sure the Buddhist churches also had fujinkais. But you know, if you were really isolated, you didn't have that kind of social opportunity. But I just talked to them in my simple Japanese, and said, "You should know what your daughters are thinking," and in simple ways I expressed it. And said that, I explained what parliamentary procedure was, and that the girls need this kind of practice, being a secretary and this kind of thing.

The other funny thing that happened was, I think I told you that the Protestant churches had apparently all signed an agreement that they would not proselytize in, within camp. And apparently, the YM did that, and they told me the YW did that, but I could never ascertain that. And they wanted me to, to stop, that I was proselytizing, and I said, "I don't feel, I'm not proselytizing, I'm providing group experiences. The kids need to be able to learn to operate in a group situation, they also need to do some thinking about what did they think of camp, what would they like to see, what do they wish they could be doing." And so I, I just, they would come to approach me, and I'd say, "You know, I told you, the kids need something to do. The Boy Scouts are going, how come we can't have girl's activities?" And they went to my mother -- [laughs] -- and, and they wanted her to, they wanted my mother to stop me. And my mother had to turn around and say to them, "I don't see anything wrong with what Elaine's doing." And so that never got across. And (in the) recreation department, I had YMCA guys working, doing other kinds of things, and they just had to give up on me. I, I didn't explode or get angry at them, I just, I was too busy going from one group to the other. But that's, that was interesting.

AI: Well, before we get too far ahead, I wanted to just finish up asking about the conference at Pocatello. Was this the first time that you had been able to get outside of Tule Lake?

EH: (Yes).

AI: And what was that, what did it feel like just to be able to get out of the camp?

EH: Well, it was, it was a little worrisome. We didn't know -- but there were three of us. And we knew that the guys were going in and out for labor camps. And I just knew, I had confidence enough in the YWCA, and I think I even felt that if something happened, we just had to call Pocatello YW or the YW in whatever town we were in. Or a minister, I thought, though later you find out that ministers aren't always that willing. But...

AI: But you didn't have any trouble on your way?

EH: We didn't have any trouble. No. You know, we, we could go in somewhere and have a cup of coffee. That didn't always happen. When I left the first time -- no, the last time, out of Tule Lake, and I was traveling with Father Dai of the Seattle's Episcopal St. Peter's Church. And for, four of us May Oiye and Bill Osuga, and there was one guy that I can't remember, so four of us with Father Dai, and we did get turned away from restaurants. And at one time, we were in Salt Lake City, I think, and we went around the corner and Father Dai says, "Let's go around the corner." And he gets in a doorway and turns his white, turns his collar around, so that his clergy collar is showing much more prominently. And so we go into another place, and, and we get served. He says, "I'm Father Daisuke Kitagawa, and these are students, and we're traveling to Estes Park for a student conference. And they served us, but I think it really depends on each little cafe and whatever.

AI: But in, at any rate, in Pocatello, you didn't have that problem.

EH: We didn't have any problem. And 'course, the YWCA is a sizeable group, so that we were never alone. And basically, it was in the YWCA building. We must have, our hotel -- I, we didn't go to a hotel, so there must have been room accommodations. Sometimes YWCA, here in Seattle, YWCA has a sizeable women's reservation, residential area. And Pocatello is much smaller, but I think that's what we must have done. I can't, I don't, it's the first time you're, I'm thinking about, "Where did we stay in Pocatello?" I just, I have pictures of a building, an old kind of chalet, dark-stained building, two or three stories high. Two stories, I guess. And that's interesting. I, I've never met anybody -- and Aya Miyazaki's gone now -- but I've, I've only met Aya a couple of times. She was my dentist's wife, and ultimately, after she got out, they got out of camp, they established a dental practice in Chicago. So I used to see Koki, I used to see Aya, too. Her sister apparently continued doing some YW work in Tule Lake after I left.

<End Segment 35> - Copyright © 2004 Densho. All Rights Reserved.