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RS: And so anyway, after that senior year I was able to maintain grades and everything and I became a DMG, graduate. But something interesting also happened in that senior year that sort of ties into all of this and... there was a guy that was in ROTC with me. His name was Steve something, and he was a big all-state high school football player from Queen Anne High School. And so I knew of him when I was in high school, and then he ended up in ROTC and he was a DMS and DMG so all of a sudden I'm rubbing elbows with these, who I thought were the big mucky-mucks from high school on a city-wide level. He came up to me and, about mid-way through the senior year and said, asked me if I would be interested in being in his fraternity. And at the time, the fraternities were all-white at the University of Washington. That's why they had SYNKOA House and Valedas, and all the minority groups had their own fraternities, sororities, none of which interested me. But this guy asked me, I think it was Fijis, Phi Gamma Delta. And he said, "Why don't you come to this social we're having?" And then I find out that all the JA guys I know are all being invited, except to different fraternities, we were being sort of scattered all around. So I'm asking, "What's going on here?" And said, "I don't know." "Well, who called you?" Blah, blah, blah, there was this sort of buzz about all of this. So I went to this meeting that they had. And they had party favor, hors d'oeuvre stuff, we're in there and all the fraternity brothers were out there. And this guy, Steve, was sort of assigned to me and I guess because of our ROTC connection, and at some point he took me aside and said, "We've decided to open the fraternity up to other races." And I immediately became sort of suspicious. I mean, they didn't decide to do this, they were being forced to do this. And he said, "So we're starting this out for one quarter of having honorary members and we wanted to see if you're interested in pledging to become an honorary member. And I said, "Well, what does that mean, 'honorary member'?" And he says, "Well, you wouldn't have the same rights and privileges as the regular fraternity brothers but there are certain social functions that you could attend. But there are certain meetings that you're not be allowed to come to and you can't become an officer and you can't ascend in importance or anything else." And it just sounded awful. And so I didn't have the nerve to tell him to his face, but later on I saw him in class and told him I wasn't interested. After talking to a bunch of other friends of mine that all got the same rap from all the fraternities that they visited, and none of us were gonna have anything to do with this thing. So we just sort of all withdrew from that.

So that was, that was just sort of an, I kind of, it sort of opened my eyes for, for a few moments there as to the whole treatment towards me as a DMS, DMG and then that thing with Steve and going to that fraternity, and all of a sudden I sort of felt like there were these confirmations that in some parts of the life that I was living I was not fully accepted as a citizen. That there were things going on there. And of course I didn't really want to face them. I didn't know how to deal with that. There was no precedence out there for that, and so I just kind of put it in the back burner. I didn't forget about it but I just sort of reduced the visibility of it, but it was, the seeds were planted.

AI: Well, you had mentioned also that you were still in touch with some of your Japanese American friends during your college years and I was wondering what -- you had said a little bit earlier about how some of the church social activities had continued for you and so, in some ways, was your social life kind of a continuation with the same friends you had from high school? Or had it broadened somewhat in college?

RS: I think they were broadened in college. I mean, in high school I had sort of these sick relationships with just a very small group of people. And looking back on it now I think they were a group of people that were in probably worse shape than I was, or less inclined to open up for any kind of growth or any kind of adventures outside of what was normally done. And in some ways that kind of validated what I was doing because they all saw me as this person that was taking all these sort of chances and knew all these cool people and all that. And it wasn't like that at all. I didn't see that, but they gave me sort of a pecking order that made me sort of feel that maybe I was better than I actually felt I was. But when I started college it was a whole different group of people I started running around with, and mostly JAs. But there were, there were people that, people that I didn't know, and we had no kind of history, social history with. And so there was a certain kind of acceptance based on face value. And, and because we, we would sort of connect up at these church dances and stuff like that, it was like starting all over again. And so there was an immediate kind of improvement, I think, not only in terms of the level of interaction that I had with, with other guys, but just with overall sense of self-worth, improved as well. And of course, and along with that were the, the women that we were seeing. And all of a sudden you had this, gained confidence and all of a sudden that improved just the general kind of level of people that you were hanging out with and so these guys were suddenly pretty cool guys and the women were pretty cool as well. And, so, all of a sudden, from a social standpoint, it was much better. It was much healthier and everything.

AI: So in some ways, you're finishing up your senior year in high school on, in kind of an up-note. Your grades were up, your Distinguished Military Graduate --

RS: No, that was college, now. The ROTC thing was at --

AI: Right, college.

RS: -- the end of the four years of college.

AI: Yes.

RS: Right? I ended high school on a fairly flat note. And all those new friends and everything happened in college.

AI: And so, right. Excuse me.

RS: Right.

AI: So in college you're kind of at --

RS: And it was sort of our group that, in our last year were invited to be in this fraternity and stuff like that, and we all sort of turned that down, together. So there was a kind of kinship that was formed. And then these guys all became, like when I got married, they were all in my wedding party. And I was in theirs. And it was a pretty tight-knit group of people, that I still, I don't associate with 'em, but I still see them and, usually if someone dies, like when my father died, a lot of them came to the, to the funeral. So, so I still feel connected to these people, even though once I got on that art track that pretty much sort of severed ties.

<End Segment 22> - Copyright © 2003 Densho. All Rights Reserved.