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TI: So why don't we get going again and... about this time, when you were in law school the Vietnam War was going on. What were your thoughts about the Vietnam War?

DM: You know, by then, I had gone -- I was also an international relations minor. And so I would read -- and SC was fairly progressive, despite this reputation, it had a good educational program. So we would read some fascinating books. I remember reading a book by a former senator who was head of the Foreign Relations Committee from Arkansas called The Arrogance of Power. And it talked about the United States' role in trying to control other countries and the mistakes it made by supporting anti-democratic movements in order for its own self-interest. And the most striking example then was the overthrow of the democratically elected Arbenz government in Guatemala because United Fruit Company and Dole Pineapple wanted to control, control that country. And the United States CIA agents engineered the coup. And I thought, and that kind of intermeddling in the internal affairs, which was thought to be... there was thought... the intermeddling in the international affairs, I mean, it was just not, it was just not the proper thing to do. And they gave a lot of other examples of how United States exercises control.

And so, when I saw what happened, what was happening in Vietnam, by then I was primed to understand that there were other motives for this country. And the more I read the more I realized that there was no really good reason to be there. I looked at the history and... so I read quite a bit about it and I became really strongly anti-war at that time. And so I participated in the anti-war rallies and organizations. I started to do draft counseling. This was in law school, at the start of law school. I remember one of my Jewish friends telling me, "You've gotta get out of the draft. Your number is too high. You cannot participate in this immoral war." And so I thought about it and I thought, he's totally right. I'm, it's hypocritical for me to try to get other people out by draft counseling and not doing it myself. So that's how I started draft counseling where I just started it. And so I filed for conscientious objector. And I, and I knew in my heart that I was never gonna go fight in that war, ever. And the most interesting thing kinda happened at that time. It was my first year of law school in 1968, my first semester. And the first set of finals, I started getting some stomach problems. These were totally... and I never had 'em before. So I, when I was down in L.A., Gardena one day I was sent to the local doctor and the -- Japanese American guy, from Berkeley, he went to school in Berkeley and UCSF. And so I was telling him about my stomach problems and he's going, "Yeah, you know, you look like you have something like colitis," he goes, "but, you know, what do you think of this war that's going on?" And he brought it up. And I said, "Well, you know, I hate this war. I think this is an immoral war." And he goes, "Yeah, I do, too." He goes, "Yeah, I think you have colitis." And of course, I then looked into the manual because, since I was just starting to do draft counseling I realized that that's one of those conditions that gets you out. And so he wrote a letter to the draft board. And so I didn't... they never acted on my conscientious objector application but I got out on what they called a 1-Y, a medical, medical deferment. And it was really funny; the colitis went away after a little while. [Laughs] But I honestly think it was partly due to law school. Because at the time law school was just... it was like, it was just a pain.

TI: Well, in general, if you had gone down the CO path, if you didn't do the --

DM: Right.

TI: What would have happened, do you think?

DM: Oh, I would have been assigned to do some community work somewhere. That's where I would have looked for. So it wouldn't have ever been that bad. I would have deferred my career by a few years, but I wasn't bothered by that. I just knew I wasn't gonna fight in what I considered an immoral war.

<End Segment 12> - Copyright © 2003 Densho. All Rights Reserved.