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TI: Let's talk about this more. Because you had to actually frame this issue so that, so that during redress, liberals, conservatives, middle of the road politicians had to understand this issue and vote for this. So how did you frame -- when you talk about the fundamental issues, what were those? I mean, how did you do this?

GU: Well, this is something other than life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness or the second amendment or the first amendment -- not the second amendment, the second amendment is the controversial right to bear arms amendment. But, what you do -- let's use an analogy. Okay? This is something that I did at a conference at UCLA. But, I'll crib (from) myself. Let's say redress is a blue standard issue Taurus. That's what it is. And you gotta sell this to Congress and you gotta sell this to Ronald Reagan. And so, let's say the division -- and it was quite severe then as it is today -- between liberals and conservatives can be represented by Barney Frank, who is an old friend of mine, a Harvard friend of mine, and Ronald Reagan. The liberal and the conservative. And you gotta sell the same blue Taurus to both these guys. So you're in the showroom and here's this blue Taurus in front of you and you got one just like it in the back. And you're waitin' around at ten thirty and no customers come in. And (then) in walk Barney and Ronald Reagan. You're gonna pitch them at the same time. You say, well -- actually you don't want to pitch them at the same time. You say, "Hey, Barney, why don't you go over here and sit down and I want to sell Reagan first." So you say, "Here's this blue Taurus. And I'm gonna tell you the features, the features about this blue Taurus that might really appeal to you. This blue Taurus represents government staying out of your life. It means as you conservatives understand it -- one definition of freedom is getting the government out of your life. And you know what happens when too, there's too much government." Right? "Oh yeah, I hate that." "Well, you see, in this blue Taurus we have the desire for government to stay out of your life. In other words, we don't want the government to send a group of people classified by race into concentration camps. 'Cause that is the ultimate in too much government. Don't you think?" "Yeah, we don't want that." "Well, this represents minimal government." "Oh, I like that. I think, yeah, you sold me. I'm gonna buy this car." You say, "Okay, you can have this one here. And you go in the back and you make out the papers and you can drive it away." So off Ronnie goes in this minimal government Taurus.

So now you're dealing with Barney. So the one from the back is brought in. You say, "Barney, let me tell you about this car. This car has two features. First feature is about keeping the government out of your life. Not letting the government into your bedroom, and not letting the government do all this shit, censor the press. You know, you know what I mean. (You are) a card-carrying member of the ACLU. You know what I'm talking about. Don't let the government do this stuff. Get it? It's about minimal government. It's about keeping government at bay. And it's also a whole lot about great things that the government can do. I mean, you support Social Security, you want to advance affirmative action, you want all these things, you want prescription drugs for the elderly. These are all things that government can do. That's part of the car, too. But I didn't tell Ronnie that. Now what can you and Ronnie agree on? You know -- features of this car? Well, I know you a little bit better, Barney, than I know Ronnie. I'll tell you, we're gonna need his help down the road. You know that. So, we're gonna sell this thing as minimal government. That's where the liberals and conservatives can agree. They can agree on this. We have to have minimal government of a certain sort. Otherwise the government will move people into concentration camps. So Barney, can you and Ronnie agree on a minimal government Taurus?" "Yeah. I'll buy into that if Ronald Reagan and the conservatives want to buy into that, fine." So I said, "Well, go in the back, sign the papers, the car is yours. Drive it out." So the next day you look out the big plate glass in the window in the Ford dealership and ol' Ronnie drives by in his blue Taurus and Barney drives by in his. They're both happy as hell. So you sell them both on a minimal government Taurus, because anything other than that could produce a concentration camp.

So you frame the issue so you got this bell shaped curve and where's the overlap? Well the overlap is here, this little gray area. You as a chemical engineer (can) understand. So, let's see if we can get our message into that gray area so both Ronnie and Barney will buy in. They did. They'll both buy that gray area. Anything outside the gray area, one or the other is gonna say, uh-uh.

TI: But the other part wasn't considered was -- so the conservatives bought into that minimum government intervention. And so this shouldn't have happened. But then the other part was the reparations. I mean, to actually address this with, with, more than just an apology.

GU: Right.

TI: But reparations of twenty thousand dollars per person.

GU: Yeah.

TI: So how did that play? How did you play that?

GU: Well, that was a little bit harder. But, if you talk to Barney, Barney will say -- I mean this is the liberal -- you say, hey, this is like trial lawyers. This is like tort law. If you confiscate my strawberry crop, you better pay up. If you confiscate my First through Fifteenth Amendment rights -- you know, these kids who protested the Vietnam War, they spent one night in jail, each got ten thousand dollars. Come on. So, this is like the plaintiff's bar which would sell to a Democrat. You say, you know, you make a mistake of this sort. You run over -- you bash in the side of my car, you ran the red light, pay up. Yeah, a little bit harder on the conservative side. The conservative argument, you can make this argument separately -- you said, "You know, you conservatives believe in results, not process. You also believe that talk is cheap, right? Well, it is cheap. Money talks. The kind of talk that money talks ain't cheap. So, if you really mean this on behalf of the American people, make it real. You know, the liberals were always bullshitting. This is a no bullshit bill. Pay up. Otherwise it doesn't count." They said, "Okay. I get it."

<End Segment 8> - Copyright © 2002 Densho. All Rights Reserved.