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TI: Now for someone like you who really worked closely with congressmen and people within the White House --

GU: Uh-huh.

TI: I mean, so did he give you a different perspective, or was this all, did it all make sense? Or was this like a new understanding in terms of how things were done in the Beltway?

GU: It's a subculture. Washington is a subculture like, like software around Seattle. It's a subculture. It's like Hollywood. Hollywood is a subculture. The financial district in New York is a subculture. So you begin to learn the ways of the subculture. Kinds of things that you do and kinds of things that you don't do. And Mike was practiced in that. So, let me give you an example which I may want to edit out later. He would say look, Dan Inouye is a very smart guy. He's very shrewd. And every day people come in and ask him for something. Okay? When you go in and see Dan, you go in by yourself. Because if you go in with three others, Dan is gonna know which of the three of you want the least. So if you want six, and person B wants four, and the third person in the room wants one, Dan is gonna know which person wants one and he'll say, "I'm gonna give you one." And the person who wants one will say, "Hurray, let's get out of here." Okay? So you gotta go in by yourself. So these are in some ways tricks of the trade, and they're innumerable. And Mike was an absolute master at that. So I think -- given the revolution of the '60s, people said, "Well who is this guy who sent us to camp?" No, no, no, no. That's not the way it happened. So, Mike became my mentor and surrogate father, who had still a lot to contribute to our community. And I think without Mike saying -- when he had his early doubts about redress -- without Mike saying to Spark, "This is something we ought to go for," Spark wouldn't have done what he did in the Senate.

<End Segment 3> - Copyright © 2002 Densho. All Rights Reserved.