<Begin Segment 27>

AI: And what kind of service program did you have at that time? You say it's for troubled youth, but what did you actually do with the youth?

TI: Well, we met with them. We (got) two buses, vans, and we'd transport the kids to the center or wherever they wanted to go. And so we made ourselves available to them, they were available to us. And without a doubt, they had some real problems.

AI: What kind of problems?

TI: Failing in school, disruptive behavior, and then actual criminal behavior as well. And becoming a pest to the community because they were, fight, beginning to fight in groups. And so they were creating attention to them, and so we were going to respond positively to them. Well, the general feeling was it wasn't helping these kids after two years sweating it. So we thought, sooner we learn from history the better. So that's when we did a national review of studies, efforts across the United States and found out, shockingly in my mind, only five studies ever done that were done well. Experimental control design and careful way of monitoring, processing the impact of it. Then I thought that the sooner we reviewed what we were doing, the better off everybody's going to be including our staff and the clients. So we applied to the National Institute of Mental Health, which was a premier research arm of the government, and got a small planning grant, "Social Group Work with Delinquents." And with that, we came up with a bigger proposal idea. And we submitted a proposal that was rejected. Then we revised it, and the national staff sent a visiting team to review our proposal. And when they do that, then there's a real special interest. So we got this (site visit) we had our research person on board. But the review panel was saying, "We like what the staff proposal service part is, but not the research part." The research person later said, "I think we can redo this, but keep it in there." The social work staff (told the researcher), "Sorry, we can't use you." (We) rewrote the (proposal) and it was approved. Then it was rejected because Congress for the first time limited the budget of the National Institute of Mental Health to the same level (of the previous year). They always increase it every year, but this one time Congress didn't. So that meant our proposal was not approved.

Well, we were very poor, and I kept calling this national director up and keeping him alert about what we were doing. I'd hired this social worker from Philadelphia. At that time, cost of the long-distance call -- [laughs] -- we were really poor. And this guy's lease for his furnishing was up. "What do we do?" I said, "Ship it." [Laughs] Well, and then I told the national director, "This is the pickle I'm in." He says, well he'll rethink our budget proposal. And I said, "I need to know as soon as possible." He says, "Okay. I'll get back to you." Same day, he called me back and said, "Can you handle $25,000?" I said, "No, I think around $50,000 would be closer, 'cause I need a half-time research director and a social worker." So he says, "Okay, you're in." So that was in, around September. Then he calls me up January, he says, "Ike, how much more money you want?" That was, you know, nobody asks that question. And I was wondering. So I says, "Well, can you give us the whole (amount of our original budget)?" He says, "Sure." Then I said, "Really, I don't think I can spend it, 'cause I know you can only spend up to, carry over $5,000 to the next fiscal year." He says, "No problem. You do it the way you want to do it next year." (By submitting how we would spend the funds the following year.) And so we got in. And so we got this five-year, ended up later as a seven-year study with a two year follow-up study. And we became one of the top (ten) studies in the nation. We developed the first computerized record system for social workers. (I) actually got criticism among social workers because I (used) numbers (which didn't express) feeling. (Using code number for) the hostile, aggressive (behavior) as number (two or) three. [Laughs] Because it was a computerized form or numbered form, you could total it up with a computer. And of course, in those days, the computer cards were used. It's a longer, but comparatively-speaking, shorter period of time than adding by hand. And we were able to calculate amount of service per group of eighteen kids per social worker, and the amount of service being given, type of service, type of problem, and just so on, and it's all printed out (in a short time so we eliminated one secretary position.)

AI: When was that approximately, that period of five to seven years that you were conducting this...

TI: '63, '62. One interesting thing that happened, a professor at School of Social Work at the University of Washington went to an international meeting (in Switzerland) on record-keeping. And ours was (used as a) case study. And he briefly talked to me and that was it. Because I was the president of the National Association of Social Workers (NASW), I was invited to speak to the School of Social Work student body. And...

AI: Here in Seattle...

TI: Yeah.

AI: ...at the University of Washington?

TI: (As) president (of NASW). I went to a meeting of the whole faculty and staff and students. I brought with me these five books, I mentioned (earlier). Each one ineffective, ineffective. (I read a quote from each research study which concluded.) So I told the students and faculty that you can't believe everything we've got here. You've got to question things. You've got to add your knowledge to it and contribute to the body of knowledge. I was never invited again, naturally. I felt I needed to be honest. I felt we needed to face up to the fact that, "I don't know" (and also) "we (didn't) know," except we (weren't) able to admit we (didn't) know. University professors, heads of research, heads of government, all (have) difficulty admitting this. I found tremendous strength in being able to admit I didn't know and to recognize that everyone else didn't know, but they couldn't admit it.

AI: So for example, in your field of working with youth...

TI: Yeah.

AI: ...who were in difficulty or had problems, in that field, admitting that there's a great deal that wasn't known?

TI: Yeah.

AI: And then taking action from there?

TI: Yeah. How can the institution change ways to accommodate the kids rather than expect the kids to accommodate themselves to fit the agency's standard of behavior. (This attitude) opened up more doors of creativity and strength to be different.

<End Segment 27> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.