<Begin Segment 1>

AI: [Eng.] Today is June 23rd, 2000. We're here in Seattle, Washington, speaking with Marian Asao Kurosu. My name is Alice Ito for the Densho Project. And also interviewing is Tomoyo Yamada. John Pai is the videographer. And we're going to start by asking questions about your very early childhood and family in Japan. Mrs. Kurosu, when were you born?

MK: [Eng.] Oh, that's Japanese way or English, that's English no more easy.

AI: [Eng.] Japanese way is fine.

MK: [Jpn.] 1907. I born the 19 -- , I don't know... if in Japanese...

AI: [Jpn.] Japanese is fine.

MK: [Eng.] No, 19 -- oh gosh, I miss so much.

[Interruption]

MK: [Jpn.] 1907. March 10. 19 -- o-seven. It sounds funny, doesn't it? Zero-o-seven, o-seven in the March 10, I born in Kamiasoda, Rokujo village, Asua County, Fukui Prefecture, that's my, born, that place.

AI: [Eng.] What was your mother's name?

MK: [Eng.] Mother, Misao Kaneda.

AI: [Eng.] And father's name?

MK: [Eng.] Shinsaku Kaneda.

AI: [Eng.] What do you remember about your mother? Do you remember, have any very early childhood memories --

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, not much. Very sorry, not much. No, I can't...

AI: [Eng.] And what did your family do in Fukui Prefecture?

MK: [Eng.] Oh, that's, raise rice. Rice paddy or what, uh-huh. So, everybody easy to live. Yeah.

AI: [Eng.] It was easy to live?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah... then my grandpa, grandpa, he raise me, so I... he's eighty-two years old, then die. Until, I live same house with my grandpa.

AI: [Eng.] And what was your grandpa's name?

MK: [Eng.] Kaneda Nizaemon.

AI: [Eng.] Well, you told us earlier that your father left Japan --

MK: [Eng.] Oh, yeah.

AI: [Eng.] -- to come to the U.S.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

AI: [Eng.] Why did he do that?

MK: [Eng.] I don't know too much but I think my second uncle is in America. That's why I think my father coming America.

AI: [Eng.] So your father came to America when you were very little, when you were very young.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, that's right.

AI: [Eng.] And, I think you said earlier not too many people went from Fukui Prefecture.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, my village, my village only one, my father the only one come to Alaska, America. Uh-huh.

AI: [Eng.] And do you know why that very few people from Fukui Prefecture --

MK: [Eng.] Because easy to live. That's why nobody want to come to America.

AI: [Eng.] The farming was good?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, farming fine. Yeah. That's why nobody want to come to America.

AI: [Eng.] The, I think you told us earlier that your uncle, who came first was, his last name was Araki --

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, that's Nisaku Kaneda. But, what called, he marry to Araki, Araki Masa. That's her name. Yeah. So he gonna change to Araki. Yeah.

AI: [Eng.] And then when your father came to America, did he work with his brother, or live with his brother?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, later on. Later on he working with his brother, Nisaku, South Park Greenhouse.

AI: [Eng.] South Park Greenhouse.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah. That's why, yeah.

AI: [Eng.] When you were about six years old, your mother came to America --

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

AI: [Eng.] -- to join your father and that is, that's when you were, stayed with your grandpa. Is that when you went to stay with your grandpa?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, that's right, that's right, uh-huh.

AI: [Eng.] And you had a younger brother, Yoneichi?

MK: [Eng.] Yoneichi, yeah. Only I think one year little, one year's maybe not enough though, then my mother's mei-, what's mei-, what, what...

AI: [Eng.] Niece? Niece?

MK: [Eng.] Mother's ni- ni- mi-... you know?

AI: [Eng.] Niece?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, niece, yeah. They raise my brother, uh-huh.

<End Segment 1> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 2>

AI: [Eng.] Well please tell us some of your memories of Japan, when you were growing up. Can you tell us what your village looked like?

MK: [Eng.] Oh, village, not much different, but you know we are all kids gather, and run around, sometime going up the tree. Then all kind, play. Pretty good. Yeah.

AI: [Eng.] Was it a small village, or many houses --

MK: [Eng.] Fifty-two family.

AI: [Eng.] Fifty-two families.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

AI: [Eng.] And did you go to -- you went to grade school when you were young?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

AI: [Eng.] And then later you went to girls' school?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, then girls' school, yeah.

AI: [To Tomoyo] [Eng.] Why don't you ask about the girls' school?

TY: [Jpn.] Well, please tell us about your girls' school.

MK: [Jpn.] Oh, girls' school. The girls' school is Jinai Girls School.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh.

MK: [Eng.] So every day I walk half an hour, spend half an hour. Uh-huh. Then my friend, two friend, same time we go, same, same time and then same time come back home. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Then when you were going to Jinai Girls School --

MK: [Jpn.] Yes.

TY: [Jpn.] -- was there an English class?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, not much, though. Only few, but Japanese English not too good, huh. But still, yeah...

TY: [Jpn.] Since when did you start your English school, no, English class?

MK: [Eng.] Three... third grade.

TY: [Jpn.] Third grade?

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Of grade school?

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Of middle school?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, are coming later. That's why not much though. I know a little bit, that's all. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Then, the teacher was a Japanese person, I suppose.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, yeah, that's right. Japanese teacher. Yeah, that's right.

TY: [Jpn.] Did you like English?

MK: [Eng.] Nobody like that.

<End Segment 2> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 3>

TY: [Jpn.] Then among your family members, your father, an uncle and his wife came to work in the U.S., didn't they?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] So, you lived with your grandpa since six years old. Did you think you were going to the U.S. someday?

MK: [Eng.] No.

TY: [Eng.] No?

MK: [Eng.] No, I like it with my grandpa, so I never think about America.

TY: [Jpn.] Didn't you want to go and live with your father and mother?

MK: [Eng.] No.

TY: [Jpn.] No?

MK: [Eng.] No.

TY: [Jpn.] Did you miss your father and mother?

MK: [Eng.] No, because my grandpa so nice, so I never think, I never think America. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] All right. Your brother was staying at your mother's niece's, wasn't he?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, uh-huh, uh-huh, yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] I suppose you didn't see him very often.

MK: [Eng.] Oh, once in awhile, that's all.

TY: [Eng.] Yeah.

MK: [Eng.] Because far away so, uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Weren't you lonely? Because you were with your grandpa?

MK: [Eng.] No, I don't think so, because lots of friends all over there you know, so, uh-huh. Fine.

TY: [Jpn.] Did your father or mother write to you?

MK: [Eng.] No, I never see.

TY: [Eng.] Yeah.

MK: [Eng.] Maybe my grandpa, that's my mother's, mother's father... I think they take care everything.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh. That's why I never lonely or nothing. Yeah. Fine. They take care me too sometime. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Then did you write a letter to your father and mother?

MK: [Eng.] No, I never write any letter or nothing. Because they never give to me either.

TY: [Jpn.] I see. Didn't that make you lonesome?

MK: [Eng.] No.

TY: [Jpn.] Because your grandpa took care of you well.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] All right. Well, were you sixteen? When your grandpa passed away.

MK: [Jpn.] Yes. That's right.

<End Segment 3> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 4>

TY: [Jpn.] Well, then...

MK: [Jpn.] Then...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes?

MK: [Eng.] -- my father bring one, no not quite one yet, boy bring Japan. Then I go to America with my father.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

AI: [Eng.] Well, yes because in America, your mother had --

MK: [Eng.] -- yeah, passed away --

AI: [Eng.] -- had had a...

MK: [Eng.] -- yeah, that's why I think need more help, I think, I think need more help, that's why I'm coming, come to the U.S.

AI: [Eng.] So, your mother passed away when your baby brother was about how old?

MK: [Eng.] Oh, not quite one year. Then, my uncle's, uncle's third, third uncle, they take care my brother. Uh-huh.

AI: [Eng.] And what was his name, your uncle's name?

MK: [Eng.] Akira Kaneda. Same name, yeah.

AI: [Eng.] So Akira Kaneda then moved into your house --

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, yeah my house, not my house --

AI: [Eng.] Grandfather's house.

MK: [Eng.] -- yeah grandfather's house, yeah.

AI: [Eng.] And --

MK: [Eng.] They raise over there, he raise over there.

AI: [Eng.] He raised your baby brother?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, yeah.

AI: [Eng.] And what was your baby brother's name? Your --

MK: [Eng.] Hideo.

AI: [Eng.] Hideo.

MK: [Eng.] Hideo Kaneda, uh-huh.

AI: [Eng.] So, when your father came with Hideo --

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

AI: [Eng.] -- what did you think about your father, you didn't know your father before?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah, you mean...

TY: [Jpn.] What did you think of your father when you saw him? You can speak in Japanese. What was your impression of your father?

MK: [Jpn.] Well, not much.

TY: [Jpn.] Really?

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Did you imagine what kind of person he was?

MK: [Eng.] I think a little bit hot temper. [Laughs]

TY: [Jpn.] Hot temper. Does that mean he was short-tempered? I see.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah. Then, before the war, my father go back to Japan, because she don't want a, he don't want a die the U.S.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Eng.] Because, because America and Japan, you know, war. That's why, yeah. That's why he gonna go back Japan. Then --

TY: [Jpn.] Well, then...

MK: [Eng.] -- yeah, then he died over there.

TY: [Jpn.] By the way, your father was the eldest son of the Kaneda family, wasn't he?

MK: [Eng.] Oh, yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Then, Mr. Araki was younger than he.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Then, Akira was younger than Mr. Araki.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Then...

MK: [Jpn.] Yet younger was Hiroshi.

TY: [Jpn.] Hiroshi?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah. Therefore, four.

TY: [Jpn.] There were four boys?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] By the way, I was told that your father could not come home right away after your grandfather passed away. He could not attend the funeral.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, no. Long time. Yeah, because after the war -- no, no, no, before the war, he go back to Japan, you know so. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] So, your father was working in the U.S. and then...

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Then your mother passed away. So he came back with Hideo.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Was that because your grandfather died?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah --

TY: [Jpn.] He came back to Japan, didn't he?

MK: [Eng.] -- That's right. Because my grandfather died. He come back. Then bring a he -- baby.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] At that time, Akira inherited the grandfather's house, didn't he?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Why didn't your father, who was the eldest, inherit the house?

MK: [Eng.] Because, I don't know, he don't want to go back Japan, that's why.

TY: [Eng.] Yeah.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh. Look like it. Uh-huh.

<End Segment 4> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 5>

AI: [Eng.] Now, you were about sixteen and a half years old, or seventeen years old then. How did you find out you were going to come to America?

MK: [Eng.] I don't know, the U.S. you know nothing, but because my, my grandfather gone, so I don't want to stay that house, because he's now gone, that's why. Uh-huh.

AI: [Eng.] And your, so your father said --

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

AI: [Eng.] -- he would take you to America?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah that's right. Same time he, yeah, I come back America. He come back same time I go with him. Uh-huh.

AI: [Eng.] How -- that was 1924, you came to America --

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh, yeah, 1924.

AI: [Eng.] How did you feel about coming to America?

MK: [Eng.] No -- nothing. I don't know nothing, so I don't feel anything, yeah.

AI: [Eng.] You came on a ship named Kagamaru?

MK: [Eng.] Kagamaru, yeah.

AI: [Eng.] Kagamaru. What do you remember about the trip on the boat?

MK: [Eng.] Oh, terrible. I don't know. Always vomit all time so, oh just like dysentery. Yeah.

AI: [Eng.] Seasick.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

AI: [Eng.] And what kind of room did you have on the ship?

MK: [Eng.] Oh, bottom.

AI: [Eng.] On the bottom of the ship?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, that's why, you know, more shaking, huh. Yeah. Top is much better, though.

AI: [Eng.] And did you share the room with your father or other people --

MK: [Eng.] Other -- no no, other per -- other lady. Uh-huh. Yeah, because separate you know. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] So when your father came back...

MK: [Jpn.] Yes.

TY: [Jpn.] You were told that he was taking you to the U.S..

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Was it decided in a family meeting or something?

MK: [Eng.] I don't think so. Mmm.

TY: [Jpn.] Let's go. Let's go --

MK: [Eng.] That's his idea, look like.

TY: [Jpn.] I understand you had to apply for a visa to come to the U.S.

MK: [Eng.] Oh yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Where did you apply?

MK: [Eng.] Yokoha -- I don't know. Yokohama?

TY: [Jpn.] Fukui is a small city. That's why?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, Yokohama, I think.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah? Then you apply for a green card, no, a visa in Yokohama...

MK: [Eng.] Then, yeah, then I... ship stay in Yokohama. So, we come to Yokohama, then comes arrive America.

TY: [Jpn.] I hear you traveled by train from Fukui to Yokohama.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] How long did it take?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] In those days, you must have had to change trains often.

MK: [Eng.] Mmm, yeah, one time I changed trains. Yeah. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Also, did you go through an examination?

MK: [Jpn.] Exam?

TY: [Jpn.] Examination. Didn't you take a physical examination or body check?

MK: [Eng.] No, no.

TY: [Jpn.] Then without. If you were at the bottom, then you had a third-class ticket.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] With that ticket...

MK: [Jpn.] Yes.

TY: [Jpn.] You stayed in the women's quarter.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] That's how you came to the U.S.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

AI: [Eng.] What, what did your father tell you about America before you came?

MK: [Eng.] Because no time to talk, because he's busy all time, you know, "Because a long time I never see anybody." You know he friend, or that. So, I think he got no time, that's why. And short time, too.

TY: [Jpn.] What do you mean by short time?

MK: [Eng.] Oh, short time in, stay in Japan, because go back. Go back to America, that's why. Uh-huh.

TY: [Eng.] So how long did he have from the day he arrived till he left with you? How long did he stay in Japan?

MK: [Eng.] Hideo?

TY: [Eng.] Your father.

MK: [Eng.] Oh father? Father, I don't know. One month? Yeah, uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] During that time, he had to buy tickets, apply for a visa and prepare for the trip.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, yeah, that's right. Pretty busy, you know. Uh-huh, yeah.

AI: [Eng.] Do you remember any talk with your, the other women in your room on the boat? Do you remember any conversation with her?

MK: [Eng.] No... no, no conversation.

AI: [Eng.] Or did she know anything about America?

MK: [Eng.] No, no... because you know, nobody -- my village, nobody comes Alaska -- America. That's why nobody know America. That's why no talk. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Were the women you shared the room with on the boat also from Fukui Prefecture?

MK: [Eng.] Huh?

TY: [Jpn.] Were the women you stayed with on the boat also from Fukui Prefecture?

MK: [Eng.] No.

TY: [Jpn.] No? Do you remember from where?

MK: [Eng.] Look like everybody my stranger. I don't know nobody, so...

TY: [Jpn.] Also you were seasick.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] By the way, did you have a farewell party when you left the village? With your friends? You grew up with them.

MK: [Jpn.] Uh-huh. Well, we bid farewell.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Well, some sort of farewell.

TY: [Jpn.] Everybody --

MK: [Jpn.] We didn't do anything big.

TY: [Jpn.] But those were your childhood friends, weren't they?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Because it was a village of fifty-two families.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah, that's right.

TY: [Jpn.] When you left, did you think you would return, or never --

MK: [Jpn.] I didn't think about it.

TY: [Jpn.] I see. You just said goodbye.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, because America, I don't know America, you know, so I never think anything.

TY: [Jpn.] I see. What did your friends say? You were the first person in your village.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, friends. Nobody know America, so, I think they don't care America. Nobody come America, that's why, yeah.

<End Segment 5> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 6>

TY: [Jpn.] By the way, what kind of things did you bring when you came to the U.S.? What did your father tell you to bring?

MK: [Eng.] No, just clothes. Only one clothes, that's it. Then, let's see, clothes, I think clothes, you don't need it. Because America., you know, you don't need Japanese clothes. So, I think that's all. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] What did you wear when you came to the U.S.?

MK: [Eng.] Huh?

TY: [Jpn.] When you came to the U.S.?

MK: [Jpn.] Oh, Japanese clothes.

TY: [Jpn.] Japanese clothes?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Did you wear kimono?

MK: [Eng.] Kimono, yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Then you changed to western clothes when you arrived in the U.S.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, that's right.

TY: [Jpn.] Then you did not bring any kimono?

MK: [Jpn.] That's right. I didn't bring any.

TY: [Jpn.] Then didn't you bring another pair of zori?

MK: [Eng.] No.

TY: [Jpn.] Well, then, was there anything you wished you could bring? Any special item you brought with you?

MK: [Eng.] No, my father don't want to take anything they don't want to. So, I think one small shopping bag, that's all I have. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Then did you just let your father decide the rest of the things?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, that's right. Because I don't, so... uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Then did you come without knowing how long you would be here?

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh, yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Or did you not think at all?

MK: [Eng.] No, no, because, because I don't want to go to America. I want to stay Japan, you know. But can't help, huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Because your grandfather died?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, that's right.

<End Segment 6> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 7>

AI: [Eng.] Where did you land in America? Did you come to Seattle first?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

AI: [Eng.] And then what happened when you got to Seattle?

MK: [Eng.] Oh... lonely.

AI: [Eng.] And you had to stay in the immigration station?

MK: [Eng.] Immigration, yes.

AI: [Jpn.] Immigration office?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, one night, uh-huh.

AI: [Eng.] And what -- let's see. I think you told us before your father had to leave --

MK: [Eng.] No, that's, I leave...

AI: [Eng.] -- he, your father had to go back to the greenhouse?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

AI: [Eng.] Can you tell us what happened when he had to go back?

MK: [Eng.] Oh, because greenhouse need you know, bee. Because cucum -- they raise cucumber. Cucumber need, you know, what can I say --

TY: [Jpn.] You can speak in Japanese.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, need a bee. That's a bee, run away that time. That's why, you know, I waiting, waiting nobody pick me up. So, pretty soon, I'm cry. [Laughs] Then, maybe four hour later, you know, pick me up. Because they gonna follow, you know, bee, then catch 'em, then bring back, that's why take a long time. Yeah.

AI: [To Tomoyo] [Eng.] Could you have her repeat in Japanese?

TY: [To Marian] [Jpn.] Can you repeat what you said in Japanese? After arriving in the U.S., you went to the immigration office and had papers checked, didn't you?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Can you explain again in Japanese why your father had to go to the greenhouse?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. That greenhouse...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes?

MK: [Jpn.] Cucumber. They were growing only cucumbers.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] The cucumbers need bees. But the bees escaped and so everybody had to chase the bees.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh, I see.

MK: [Jpn.] So it took some time to catch those bees and put them back, I think. So, I wait so long time, yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] How many bees were there in the greenhouse?

MK: [Eng.] I think one box, or I think one box, I think. Lots of bees in there, so one I think enough.

TY: [Jpn.] Then, did all the bees escape?

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] All the bees from that box?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's bunch. One bunch.

TY: [Jpn.] Bunch?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, one bunch, gone, yeah. That's why they gonna follow, uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] I see. How many people were working at that time in the greenhouse? Was the greenhouse owned by Akira?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, then wife --

TY: [Jpn.] Masa.

MK: [Eng.] Then two Japanese men, two men, working over there.

TY: [Jpn.] And your father.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] So five of them.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Then did those five people look for the bees?

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh, yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] So your father could not wait for you to finish immigration procedures --

MK: [Jpn.] Yes.

TY: [Jpn.] -- You were left alone.

MK: [Eng.] Yes.

TY: [Jpn.] So you just waited after the immigration procedure was over.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah, that's right.

TY: [Jpn.] You said you stayed overnight, didn't you?

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Since you didn't know what else to do, you just stayed there overnight. You just waited there, didn't you? Without knowing how long.

MK: [Jpn.] Yes. That's right.

TY: [Jpn.] So did the immigration office offer to let you stay there?

MK: [Eng.] Well, that time, four or five, five, six, seven people, everybody going, you know. Somebody all pick 'em up, and then gone so. Only, I'm the only one stand up outside.

TY: [Jpn.] Then where did you stay that night? When nobody came to pick you up.

MK: [Jpn.] Immigration office..

TY: [Jpn.] At the immigration office.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] That is still there.

MK: [Jpn.] The immigration office is still here. Over there, don't you know?

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] I was allowed to stay there.

TY: [Jpn.] Was there anybody there with you? Did any of the workers stay with you? Or were you alone?

MK: [Jpn.] Alone.

TY: [Jpn.] That must have been really hard on you.

MK: [Jpn.] Yes, I was very lonely.

TY: [Jpn.] I bet you were.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Didn't your father tell you when he would be back?

MK: [Jpn.] No. But my father was chasing the bees and was not coming back.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] You were told about that, weren't you?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] So did you know your father was chasing the bees?

MK: [Jpn.] No, not at all.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh, really?

MK: [Jpn.] No, no. I found out later.

TY: [Jpn.] Then you were waiting there without knowing when he would show up.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, that's right. Yeah, uh-huh, yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] What were you thinking while waiting?

MK: [Jpn.] Well, I didn't think about anything. Just, "I'm in trouble. I'm in trouble." [Laughs]

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

AI: [Eng.] So, then when your father came to get you, and you came -- he took you back to --

MK: [Eng.] Then, my uncle, auntie. They are same house, live in same house.

AI: [Eng.] They lived together?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

AI: [Eng.] And was that in Sunnydale?

MK: [Eng.] No. South Park.

AI: [Eng.] South Park, I'm sorry.

MK: [Eng.] South Park, that's called South Park Greenhouse.

AI: [Eng.] With your aunt and uncle, and your father.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

AI: [Eng.] So then what was your first -- what did you think when you saw the South Park, the house and the greenhouse?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, every day, I want to go home, I want to go home. That's the only way I think. I don't like, you know, I don't like working, too. I never working. Then you know, every time, you know, do this way and do that, and only I, I use only pin, that's all, then there, you know. Do you know cutting?

AI: [Eng.] Cutting?

MK: [Eng.] You know, if make starting cutting plant, cut, cut, then put sand, soil over here, then put line up, then lots, cut stuff, put 'em in, put 'em in sand, then one box, make one box, then lots water, then next one, make it that's, flower. Yeah.

AI: [Eng.] And that was your work?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

<End Segment 7> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 8>

TY: [Jpn.] By the way, since age six, you lived with your grandfather who loved you very much.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] You told me that during the ten years you lived with him, you did not have to do any housework.

MK: [Jpn.] Right.

TY: [Jpn.] So your grandfather did everything for you, didn't he?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah, my grandfather cooked rice, did cooking...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] And he did all the shopping. He bought fish and other things downtown, and then put it there.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah. That's more easier, isn't it? Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Then, your grandfather did all the cleaning, too?

MK: [Jpn.] Therefore --

TY: [Jpn.] Yes?

MK: [Eng.] -- until I'm, graduate women's school, then that's why I don't know how to make it, rice. Only two people, you know. I don't a need help, though. Only grandpa and grandchild. So...

TY: [Jpn.] So your grandfather was retired and was a retiree?

MK: [Eng.] Nothing, no retire.

TY: [Eng.] No retirement?

MK: [Eng.] They're gonna raise me, that's big job is it? Yeah, yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Then you had no experience with housework, and came to the U.S. with your father.

MK: [Jpn.] Yes.

TY: [Jpn.] I understand you were told on the first day to cook rice.

MK: [Jpn.] Yes.

TY: [Jpn.] I mean for the greenhouse. For the greenhouse in South Park.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, working there. Then I gonna marry over there. Then I go to, I gonna move to Sunnydale. You don't know Sunnydale. Near Burien. Burien --

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Eng.] -- Burien, you know now, huh. Yeah, small place. Then I gonna make, start greenhouse again. My father too. That time father, me and my husband, three. Then I working. Then start again, another greenhouse.

<End Segment 8> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 9>

AI: [Eng.] I think you said earlier, you were married in 1931. 1931.

MK: [Eng.] 1932.

AI: [Eng.] 19 --

MK: [Jpn.] 32? I think thirty two. One year no make difference, but...

AI: [Eng.] You were about twenty-four years old when you were married?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, that's right.

AI: [Eng.] Right, twenty-four years old.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh, yeah.

AI: [Eng.] So, so that would be 1931.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

AI: [Eng.] Can you -- what do you remember about the wedding? What can you tell us about your wedding?

MK: [Eng.] Wedding, that's August -- September, so real hot, that time. So you know everybody, maybe I don't know that time, no air condition come, nothing long time. So they waiting too much, so, extra ice cream they gonna take em out, serve. Because too hot. Uh-huh. That's real hot, that time.

TY: [Jpn.] By the way, you met your husband through a matchmaker, didn't you?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah. That's right. Japanese way.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Well...

TY: [Jpn.] Can you tell us about it?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, Japanese way. That time everybody same way. Japanese way. Not American way, uh-huh.

AI: [Eng.] Can you tell us what is the Japanese way?

MK: [Eng.] Oh, same, go-between, what? Go-between?

AI: [Eng.] Go-between?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, go-between. Then you know, each other after that, each other knows little bit. Then wedding, everybody, my, my father and, another a place, another one, two together, talking when waiting day to start, yeah. Everything that you know, I don't need anything... because that time Japanese way, so... you can't talk anything. Japan way.

AI: [Eng.] So you didn't talk to your husband before you were married?

MK: [Eng.] No. Before you know, uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] So the go-between introduced you to your future husband when you were twenty-four years old which was considered the last chance age for marriage.

MK: [Jpn.] Yes.

TY: [Jpn.] Was it because your father asked somebody, or if not, how?

MK: [Eng.] No, go-between. Go-between did everything, "What should I say?" The go-between did that. They gonna set everything.

TY: [Jpn.] I see. They saw your photo?

MK: [Eng.] Then Buddhist church. I married Buddhist church.

TY: [Jpn.] Then didn't you know anything about your husband before you married him?

MK: [Eng.] No.

TY: [Jpn.] Didn't you even talk to him?

MK: [Eng.] No, no, no. Japanese way, never knows each other.

TY: [Jpn.] Then when was the first time you saw him? At what stage did you meet your husband?

MK: [Eng.] Oh, that's because go-between set, that's why. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] The date was set.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh, yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] On that date you were introduced formally.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, that's right.

TY: [Jpn.] Then you talked to him.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] There you liked each other and got married. Right?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, that's right, uh-huh. Just like Japan. Japan way, every time, everything.

Lillian Sako: [Eng.] Did you want to get married?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Did you want to get married?

MK: [Eng.] No, I never think anything like that, you know. Too busy. Working, too busy.

TY: [Jpn.] You had been working since the day you arrived in the U.S.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh, yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] All the time at the greenhouse.

MK: [Eng.] Mmm, yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] So you had been working when you were introduced to your future husband and got married.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh, yeah, that's right.

TY: [Jpn.] You mentioned earlier that your husband and father and yourself started a new greenhouse in Sunnydale.

MK: [Jpn.] That's right.

TY: [Jpn.] Then, did your husband work in a greenhouse before?

MK: [Eng.] No, there -- he, working, what, lumber company. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] For a lumber company?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah. So --

TY: [Jpn.] Well then...

MK: [Eng.] Then, so they come to my place, uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh, then, it was really... your husband was not from Fukui Prefecture, was he?

MK: [Jpn.] Fukushima Prefecture.

TY: [Jpn.] Fukushima Prefecture. Then it was really through the go-between that you two met...

MK: [Eng.] Oh yeah, that's right.

TY: [Jpn.] Then it was the go-between who arranged this marriage totally.

MK: [Eng.] Yes, that's right.

TY: [Jpn.] It was not because you two knew each other.

MK: [Eng.] I think all American, everybody come to America, the same way, Japanese way. Then marry. Hmm.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

<End Segment 9> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 10>

AI: [Eng.] Now what was your husband's name?

MK: [Eng.] Oh, Naoe, Naoe Kurosu. Uh-huh. American name "Roy."

TY: [Eng.] Roy.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] How old was your husband when you married him?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Well, how old was your husband when he married you?

MK: [Jpn.] Well, I...

TY: [Jpn.] You were twenty-four years old, weren't you?

MK: [Jpn.] He was six years older.

TY: [Jpn.] Then, thirty years old.

MK: [Jpn.] Six years difference. Six years older.

TY: [Jpn.] I see. Then, when did your husband come to the U.S.?

MK: [Eng.] No, that's... seven years ahead time, yeah. Because his father stay in America. Just like same my -- you know, yeah --

TY: [Jpn.] He was brought here by his family, just like your case.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] To help his family here.

MK: [Eng.] No, lots of boys and girls, you know, come to America. So, when you know, young lady and young man, then go-between -- still go-between. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Did you meet any other candidates? Or were you introduced only to Mr. Kurosu?

MK: [Jpn.] No, I did.

TY: [Jpn.] You saw others.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Did you see them officially?

MK: [Jpn.] No, not officially, but some suggestions.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh, there were some.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] So, before you married Mr. Kurosu?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah, that's right. Here and there, some suggestions.

TY: [Jpn.] I see. You were at a perfect age for marriage.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Then, did you refuse those men?

MK: [Jpn.] No, not that I refused them.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yes, there was one before.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh.

MK: [Jpn.] That didn't work out.

TY: [Jpn.] I see. Before you even met him?

MK: [Jpn.] Yes.

TY: [Jpn.] Then, it worked out with Mr. Kurosu and met officially.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah, that's right. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] You must have gotten a good impression of him if you were willing to marry.

MK: [Jpn.] Yes. He was a gentle person.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yes. It was rare to find such a person.

TY: [Jpn.] [Laughs] Really?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. The Japanese men are usually stiff and formal with women. You know.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] He was gentle and kind.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] So you made up your mind.

MK: [Jpn.] Yes.

TY: [Jpn.] He liked you, too.

MK: [Jpn.] Yes.

TY: [Jpn.] So you two decided to get married.

MK: [Jpn.] Yes, that's right.

TY: [Jpn.] Did you follow the Japanese traditions all the way through?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] I understand you were married at the Buddhist Church in Tacoma.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] What kind of people attended the wedding?

MK: [Eng.] Hmm?

TY: [Jpn.] People. What kind of people attended your wedding?

MK: [Jpn.] Well, friends.

TY: [Jpn.] From here?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. No. Friends here and friends over there. They were the same.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Eng.] Just like Japan.

TY: [Jpn.] How did you make friends?

MK: [Jpn.] They were not my friends. They were just the go-between.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] They just decided.

TY: [Jpn.] I see. But you said your friends attended the wedding, didn't you?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Then were they your husband's friends?

MK: [Jpn.] No. No. They were not Japanese friends.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh, then you had a small wedding.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Then, who else was at the wedding?

MK: [Jpn.] No. No. Not a marriage. Some offers didn't come through.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes. Then, you were engaged to Mr. Naoe Kurosu.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. That's right.

TY: [Jpn.] You married him.

MK: [Jpn.] That's right.

TY: [Jpn.] At the wedding, family members and...

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Who else were there?

MK: [Jpn.] Well, speaking of a family member, his father go back to Japan, too. So, he's only one stay in America.

TY: [Jpn.] He was alone here. Then.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh, yeah. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] You said you were married in the Japanese style. Does this mean you were married in kimono?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. We have it right here. The picture of our wedding. I have a picture of our wedding at Betsuin Buddhist Church. A big one.

TY: [Jpn.] I see. Did you wear a Japanese kimono?

MK: [Jpn.] The dress was an American way. An American way.

TY: [Jpn.] Then you wore a dress in the Japanese-style wedding?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, yeah, that's right. Long one.

TY: [Jpn.] A long dress?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Did you wear a white gown?

MK: [Jpn.] It was the American way.

TY: [Jpn.] I see. Then, did your husband wear a tuxedo or business suit?

MK: [Jpn.] No. We have a picture somewhere. Didn't you see it?

[off camera, Lillian shows picture]

<End Segment 10> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 11>

TY: [Jpn.] After you got married, where did you live?

MK: [Eng.] Sunnydale.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh, Sunnydale.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Did your father live there, too?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] I see. Were you planning to move to Sunnydale before you got married? Or did you decide to move because of the marriage?

MK: [Jpn.] No. After we got married, we bought a piece of land.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Then we built a small greenhouse...

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Then, after that, we were poor. We had nothing but our bodies. It was not like in Japan.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Besides, you need a lot of money to build a greenhouse. We borrowed all that money.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] See? So even if you built a greenhouse, you had to work hard to pay back the debt.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Uh-huh. But one greenhouse was not enough to support us so we built the second one. Then we had more debts to pay back. So we often had no money.

TY: [Jpn.] When you married Mr. Kurosu, he was not adopted by your family, so he didn't have to take on the Kaneda name, did he?

MK: [Eng.] Huh?

TY: [Jpn.] When Mr. Kurosu, Mr. Naoe Kurosu married you, he didn't have to take on your family name, but remained Kurosu. Right?

MK: [Eng.] Oh, yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] But he lived with your father?

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh. That's all.

TY: [Jpn.] Did Naoe agree to that?

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh, yeah, uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] That he was going to live with your father after the marriage...

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, that's right, uh-huh. Yeah, yeah that's right.

TY: [Jpn.] So the three of you started a new life.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, yeah, that's right, uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Then you worked for Mr. Araki until you bought your own home?

MK: [Eng.] Mmm, yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Did you choose the greenhouse business because you and your father were familiar with it?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, uh-huh, yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] But was it a new line of work for your husband?

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Because he was working for a lumber company till then.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh, yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] But when he married...

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah, he moved here.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes. After marriage, he moved to Sunnydale.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, move to here.

TY: [Jpn.] Then three of you started the greenhouse, farming.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh, yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Who taught you how to plant in the greenhouse?

MK: [Jpn.] Oh, my father and uncle started a greenhouse in South Park. We started the same greenhouse. So then know how to do it.

TY: [Jpn.] Then your father brought it to Sunnydale.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] He taught your husband.

MK: [Jpn.] No. Just moved.

TY: [Jpn.] I see. Then Mr. Araki...

MK: [Jpn.] Mr. Araki had the greenhouse at the same place.

TY: [Jpn.] Sunny... at South Park.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Then you bought that 15 acres of land in Sunnydale?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Do you remember who was the official owner of the land? Who was the main person?

MK: [Eng.] My uncle's kids. Uncle's kids, that's a boy. Boy, born, American-born. That's why we gonna, that's name --

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] We borrowed.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] We could not do that.

TY: [Jpn.] Because Japanese people could not buy land.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Then how did your uncle do? When he bought it in Sunnydale?

MK: [Jpn.] My uncle had his own greenhouse.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes, I know that.

MK: [Jpn.] At South Park.

TY: [Jpn.] Well, how did he do it?

MK: [Eng.] Huh?

TY: [Jpn.] Your uncle came to the U.S. for the first time and opened a business at South Park, didn't he?

MK: [Jpn.] No. I heard it was not South Park where he started his business. I don't know where. Anyway, later you know, my father, and my uncle, together then make it greenhouse.

TY: [Jpn.] Then did the Arakis already have a child?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, that's right.

TY: [Jpn.] Then were both greenhouses registered under the names of those second-generation children of his?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, that's right.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: Uh-huh. Yeah, yeah. Uh-huh, uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] That's right. That's the only way, wasn't it?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, only way.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh, otherwise, you know, American born only, that's why we gonna borrow his son's name. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Then the registered name was of your cousin, wasn't it?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] So you borrowed his name.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] You could buy the land.

MK: [Eng.] That's right.

TY: [Jpn.] But then who paid for it?

MK: [Jpn.] We had to pay for it.

TY: [Jpn.] Your father...

MK: [Jpn.] And...

TY: [Jpn.] Asao.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. But in my father's case, we had to pay everything.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Eng.] Because I move to Sunnydale, so that's different, you know. Make a start over there. So, naturally we gonna pay. They don't want it.

TY: [Jpn.] By "they," do you mean Mr. Araki?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, because separate.

TY: [Jpn.] I see. Then did your father and husband pay for it?

MK: [Eng.] What?

TY: [Jpn.] Did Mr. Kurosu, your husband, pay for part of it?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, same time. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] So you put money together.

MK: [Jpn.] Yes.

AI: [Eng.] In Sunnydale, what did you grow in the greenhouse?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, greenhouse, that's hard work, though. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] What did Mr. Araki's greenhouse grow in South Park?

MK: [Eng.] First time was the usual cucumbers and then later, all flower.

TY: [Jpn.] Then what did you grow in Sunnydale?

MK: [Eng.] First time was tomato and then cucumber, then later we gonna change the all flower.

TY: [Jpn.] Why did you grow vegetables first and then flowers?

MK: [Eng.] Because most Caucasians likes flower. That's why change to making flower, yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] I see. Well...

MK: [Eng.] Look, now bedding plant all over the place. That kind of start. Yeah, uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] You said it was hard work at the greenhouse.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] What was your day like?

MK: [Eng.] Because start you know very hard, one by one, one by one, one by one, that's why I said hard. Because when we don't have money, you know.

TY: [Jpn.] Well, can you explain again in Japanese what you had to do first, or what kind of work you had to do?

MK: [Eng.] Uh...

TY: [Jpn.] When you built the greenhouse.

MK: [Jpn.] Yes.

TY: [Jpn.] Well.

MK: [Jpn.] Greenhouse?

TY: [Jpn.] Did you have to do different things for each season? Or...

MK: [Jpn.] Greenhouse...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Eng.] -- build greenhouse, then, another one, another one, so we gonna always hard work, you know, always be very poor. Pay-out, pay-out, pay-out, you know so... uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] What was your typical day's work like in the greenhouse?

MK: [Eng.] As I said, first time cucumber and tomato, that's all.

TY: [Jpn.] I understand.

MK: [Eng.] But later on, change to flower business.

TY: [Jpn.] Right.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh, so much better. More easier.

<End Segment 11> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 12>

TY: [Jpn.] Also you said you could not cook rice when you first arrived in the U.S.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] So you ended up working in the greenhouse only.

MK: [Eng.] That's right. Yeah, because you know my uncle says, "Oh, you tonight, you gonna make a rice." Then, water this much, but I don't know how to, first time...

TY: You can speak in Japanese.

MK: [Eng.] -- Yeah, first time, first time okay, but second, third, you know, I don't know that one, that's why you know, oh funny rice cooked. [laughter]

TY: [Jpn.] So, then...

MK: [Eng.] So then, come back, then eat, but they can't eat that kind of rice, you know. So... neighbor, Japanese woman, and I don't know their age. But Japanese woman come to my place and then cook near, that's why I don't need anymore cook. So, I'm at the -- go back to greenhouse, but working.

TY: [Jpn.] Then you were originally brought here to do the housework but then ended up doing the greenhouse work.

MK: [Eng.] No, after the married, no, I never back, I never bring, go back to South Park, no I never.

TY: [Jpn.] Then when you got married and moved to Sunnydale, who did the housework?

MK: [Eng.] Huh?

TY: [Jpn.] You three started living together. Your father and Naoe and you.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Who did cooking?

MK: [Jpn.] Yes. Always... [points to self]

TY: [Jpn.] You?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. I learned. Since we had a child that I had to feed.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh, yes. That's right.

MK: [Jpn.] See? How can I say I cannot cook?

TY: [Jpn.] Then, did you learn on your own? Just by doing?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. That's right.

TY: [Jpn.] Nobody taught you.

MK: [Jpn.] Uh-huh. Little by little.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] But then, didn't you work at the greenhouse, too?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah, of course.

TY: [Jpn.] It must have been really difficult after you had children.

MK: [Jpn.] Really hard.

TY: [Jpn.] Right after you got married and before you had children, you started doing the housework.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah, that's easier, but if you had a child, you could not be with the child all the time. I nursed, changed diapers and cleaned up the baby and made sure that the baby would not move. It is dangerous if the baby moved around.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] So if the baby looked this way or that way... either way, I had to work in the greenhouse. I gonna working greenhouse, that's why I put big blanket and then tie up, then I gonna go back to greenhouse, and then working, then some but, sometime come back and see, uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh, then you left the child inside the house and went back often to check on the child.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Then you cleaned the house, took care of the children and did the cooking...

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] You also worked in the greenhouse.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, when I got a time, go back the work, because a help.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] So you three shared the work.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, that's right. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] I see. You had some time off, or, let's see, is your family religion Buddhism?

MK: [Jpn.] Yes.

TY: [Jpn.] Did you have to work on Obon or other religious holidays?

MK: [Jpn.] Just one day off. It was wonderful, but no time.

TY: [Jpn.] You didn't have time to rest.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, very few times, that's it.

TY: [Jpn.] Did you work on the New Year's days?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] You worked all the time.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh. Because greenhouse grow all time you know, that's why watching all time.

TY: [Jpn.] You said earlier that farmers cannot work during winter, but...

MK: [Eng.] Oh yeah, that's more easier. Yeah, summertime only. Winter time nothing to do. Mmm.

TY: [Jpn.] But the greenhouse...

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, all year round.

TY: [Jpn.] Even at night with lights on?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] That's right. You cannot work outside when it's dark, but inside the greenhouse you can still work.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, you can, but nighttime not much though, because I -- we gotta wake up early in the morning you know. So lots of work.

TY: [Jpn.] What time did you get up?

MK: [Eng.] Already up, five o'clock already. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] So you had a lot of work to do, the housework and greenhouse work, etc.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Did you ever get sick because of overwork?

MK: [Eng.] No, anyway, that's a old timer you know, so everything old fashion.

TY: [Jpn.] But didn't you ever get sick due to overwork? Did that ever happen?

MK: [Jpn.] No. Never. Never.

TY: [Jpn.] You didn't even have time to get sick.

MK: [Eng.] Because I was young. Young and very strong, you know so... yeah. Just like you. Uh-huh.

<End Segment 12> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 13>

TY: [Jpn.] Well, after you moved to Sunnydale...

MK: [Jpn.] Yes.

TY: [Jpn.] South Park is close to Seattle, would you say?

MK: [Jpn.] Yes. I went to South Park after arriving in the U.S.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes, was it close to Seattle?

MK: [Jpn.] Yes.

TY: [Jpn.] How many Japanese were there in that neighborhood?

MK: [Jpn.] No, it was just a village, a small village.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] There were. But I never talked with them.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh.

MK: [Jpn.] You just go in, work and eat...

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] You sleep and work again.

TY: [Jpn.] Then your father, Mr. and Mrs. Araki, and a neighbor lady who did the cooking...

MK: [Jpn.] Yes, and then late...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes?

MK: [Jpn.] Mrs. and Mr. Araki went to Pike Place Market...

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Eng.] Do you know Pike Place Market?

TY: [Jpn.] Oh, yes.

MK: [Jpn.] They took the flowers, the flowers they grew, and also other flowers they bought from another place...

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] They took those to Pike Place...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Then they did business there.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh, yes, yes, yes.

MK: [Jpn.] They sold there.

TY: [Jpn.] Then, did Mr. and Mrs. Araki speak English?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah, a little. It was broken English. You know.

TY: [Jpn.] Did your father speak English?

MK: [Jpn.] No, no. My father and I worked in the greenhouse.

TY: [Jpn.] Then you didn't have to speak English...

MK: [Eng.] No. No.

TY: [Jpn.] You did not meet anybody.

MK: [Jpn.] Even if I don't speak English, the plants were silent. It is all right if I don't speak English. [Laughs]

TY: [Jpn.] But you spoke with your father all the time.

MK: [Jpn.] No.

TY: [Jpn.] Speak...

MK: [Eng.] No, too busy.

TY: [Eng.] Yeah.

MK: [Eng.] And different kind of work, so... he working over there, and I working this way. And so --

TY: [Jpn.] Then, no one...

MK: [Eng.] -- I never talk with my father either.

TY: [Jpn.] Then you hardly spoke.

MK: [Jpn.] No.

TY: [Jpn.] What were you thinking while working?

MK: [Jpn.] Oh, I had to finish my work quickly. So I could not think of anything else.

TY: [Jpn.] You had no time to think.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. I was too busy. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] That's hard work. No time to rest or get sick.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. I worked without a break.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yes.

TY: [Jpn.] Then even if there were other Japanese there, you didn't have a chance to talk with them and Sunnydale...

<End Segment 13> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 14>

MK: [Jpn.] Then...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] In those days there were about ten places where Japanese owned greenhouses. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Were there about ten greenhouses run by Japanese?

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Were they in South Park?

MK: [Jpn.] Not all in the same place. Here and there, some far away places. But we...

TY: [Sneezes] [Jpn.] Excuse me.

MK: [Jpn.] Well, we were too busy and so we did not visit one another, but we were from the same prefecture...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes?

MK: [Jpn.] Nearby, people from Shizuoka Prefecture and other people...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes?

MK: [Jpn.] There were people who were in the same greenhouse business.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Then we talked over the phone.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Some people were visiting one another, but there was nobody else from Fukui Prefecture.

TY: [Jpn.] No. Very few people came from Hokuriku region.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. Nobody from Fukui Prefecture.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] That's why there was nobody from Fukui Prefecture in those days.

TY: [Jpn.] Not even from nearby prefectures. Not from Hokuriku region.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. Nobody came.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] They had plenty of food there.

TY: [Jpn.] That's right.

MK: [Jpn.] You were okay if you grew rice.

TY: [Jpn.] Therefore...

MK: [Jpn.] Now, it's different.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Nowadays they use machinery for everything.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] So fathers and mothers are too old. So, stay in the home, then watch grandchildren.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] That's the work. So no more worry. Everybody has machines. So sons and daughters work outside and grow rice.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] So it is much easier to make money now. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] But in your days you had to do everything by hand.

MK: [Jpn.] Yes, that's right.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] So you didn't have an organization for Fukui Prefecture people and then you moved to Sunnydale...

MK: [Jpn.] There was one.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh, really?

MK: [Jpn.] There was. A small one.

TY: [Jpn.] Really.

MK: [Jpn.] There was one, but I could not come up here from the countryside and so I never went there.

TY: [Jpn.] Then, there was a group in Seattle.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. There was.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yes. There was, but I never went.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] The Arakis...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes?

MK: [Jpn.] The Arakis went, I hear.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh, when they came to the Pike Place Market.

MK: [Jpn.] From Pike Place.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Yes. But if not from Pike Place, Pike Place is near South Park.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] So, after they came back, they went there, I hear. Yes, but Sunnydale is a little bit far.

TY: [Jpn.] That's true.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

<End Segment 14> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 15>

TY: [Jpn.] In those days, how long did it take to drive to Seattle?

MK: [Jpn.] It was very far away. Uh-huh. There were not many houses.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Between those.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes. Didn't you go to the Pike Place Market?

MK: [Jpn.] No, there was no reason for me to go.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] My uncle and aunt went there because that was their job. We had to work here as much as possible or we would be late.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yes.

TY: [Jpn.] So you have never been there?

MK: [Jpn.] No, I don't go there very often.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] What did you do to buy clothes? To buy furniture? Where did you buy them?

MK: [Jpn.] What?

TY: [Jpn.] Clothes and other necessities. You could not go to downtown Seattle to buy those, could you?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Where did you buy them?

MK: [Jpn.] What?

TY: [Jpn.] Clothes.

MK: [Jpn.] Clothes?

TY: [Jpn.] And others.

MK: [Jpn.] Oh, those. Men need only pants and tops for work. They need only two or three.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] We washed them often.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] They rotated. It is enough if you wear something like this and another one over this.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Uh-huh. So, very easy.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

<End Segment 15> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 16>

TY: [Jpn.] Wasn't it hot inside the greenhouse?

MK: [Jpn.] Yes.

TY: [Jpn.] How hot was it?

MK: [Jpn.] Although it was hot, still there were spring, summer, fall and winter.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Did it change depending on the season?

MK: [Jpn.] Because it snows during the winter.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] In those days, it snowed up to 3 feet or so.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] But inside the greenhouse...

MK: [Jpn.] But the greenhouse was heated. So the winter was hard. Just the coso of oil.

TY: [Jpn.] That's right.

MK: [Jpn.] Yes, the oil was expensive.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yes, so if you don't heat with oil, it becomes really bad when it snows. It will collapse.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Because it is glass.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh, that's right. Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Nowadays it is plastic and easy. It is big. But in my days it was not so. Once the glass is in, it is heavy. Unless you remove the snow, it will collapse.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] You see.

TY: [Jpn.] Who did such work, snow shoveling?

MK: [Jpn.] That's men's job.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. Women cannot do. Yeah. Men's job.

TY: [Jpn.] By the way, what was the temperature inside the greenhouse?

MK: [Jpn.] Oh, it depends on the crop.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] It depends on the crop.

TY: [Jpn.] I understand.

MK: [Jpn.] You can add more or less.

<End Segment 16> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 17>

TY: [Jpn.] Really? By the way, were there any Japanese in Sunnydale?

MK: [Jpn.] Oh, I wonder how many Japanese were in Sunnydale. How many Japanese in Sunnydale? Ten?

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Ten or twelve were there.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Twelve or more. Twelve, thirteen. Twelve. Do you know? Sunnydale people? I'm not sure.

TY: [Jpn.] But that is not many after all.

MK: [Jpn.] No. Mostly farmers.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yes, there were some farmers. I think ten at most.

TY: [Jpn.] But you didn't really meet neighbors...

MK: [Jpn.] No, no, I don't.

TY: [Jpn.] You were all too busy, weren't you?

MK: [Jpn.] We didn't do it at all.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes, by the way...

MK: [Jpn.] But...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes?

MK: [Jpn.] Well, the farmers had plenty of time during winter. So they socialized a lot.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] I hear.

TY: [Jpn.] Well, you cannot go even if you are asked, can you?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. There was nothing to do.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] So sometimes it was bad. They did some gambling. Yes.

TY: [Jpn.] Then you lived in a place where there were not many Japanese and did not socialize with Japanese.

MK: [Jpn.] No. That's right.

<End Segment 17> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 18>

TY: [Jpn.] I see. Where did your husband live after he came to the U.S.?

MK: [Jpn.] Well, Tacoma.

TY: [Jpn.] Tacoma.

MK: [Jpn.] Do you know Tacoma?

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] There was a lumber mill in Tacoma. A big lumber mill. There were big, what do you call, not lumber... you cannot say a big tree, what do you say?

TY: [Jpn.] Tree? [Laughs]

MK: [Jpn.] Well, tree. What do you call that, that thing after you cut down a tree?

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Then you mark that.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] After inspection, you mark a grade. He did that kind of work.

TY: [Jpn.] Did he do that all the time since he came here?

MK: [Jpn.] So he had an easy job. Then he got a hard job.

TY: [Jpn.] In the greenhouse?

MK: [Jpn.] He really came to a bad place.

TY: [Jpn.] But your husband was brought by his father to the U.S. and his father was working there...

MK: [Jpn.] Yes.

TY: [Jpn.] He joined the company.

MK: [Jpn.] Yes.

TY: [Jpn.] Who was running the lumber mill?

MK: [Jpn.] Who? That was my father and...

TY: [Jpn.] I mean the tree. The lumber mill in Tacoma.

MK: [Eng.] Hmm?

TY: [Jpn.] Your husband worked for a lumber mill in Tacoma, didn't he?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah. Right.

TY: [Jpn.] Who owned that company?

MK: [Jpn.] Oh, what did they say? A lumber company in Tacoma. What was the name?

Lillian: [Eng.] Just a sawmill.

TY: [Eng.] Sawmill?

MK: [Eng.] No, lumber company... big lumber company.

Lillian: [Eng.] What, like Weyerhauser?

MK: [Jpn.] Weyerhauser. Yeah. He worked for something like that.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Yes. There were many here and there.

TY: [Jpn.] So, after he married you, he started working in the greenhouse.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

<End Segment 18> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 19>

TY: [Jpn.] Then, were there many Japanese in Tacoma?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yes, there were quite a few Japanese between Seattle and there.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] By the way, if your husband was from Fukushima Prefecture, was there an organization for Fukushima Prefecture people?

MK: [Jpn.] No. He couldn't go to the Fukushima Prefecture one because he was too busy.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh, he couldn't, either.

MK: [Jpn.] To attend such an organization, you had to go into town, Seattle.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] It's far away.

TY: [Jpn.] They held some picnics.

MK: [Jpn.] They did that often in those days. By car.

TY: [Jpn.] Well, you didn't have time.

MK: [Jpn.] Yes, that's right. So we never went.

TY: [Jpn.] By the way, I heard this from your family. Your husband...

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] He played baseball in those days...

MK: [Jpn.] He liked baseball very much.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes. He was also a member of a karuta club.

MK: [Jpn.] That's right. Yeah, he played karuta and also did jujitsu.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] They did judo, too. People like those things.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] So we have a picture. Some of them.

TY: [Jpn.] Did he actually play baseball?

MK: [Jpn.] What?

TY: [Jpn.] Did he actually play baseball? Did he join a team?

MK: [Jpn.] That's what I heard. In Tacoma, though.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Not when we were here. He was too busy.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] When he was in Tacoma. He did many things while he was single.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] So he went out of town to play, too, I assume.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] I understand there were many Japanese teams.

MK: [Jpn.] Yes, I heard there were.

TY: [Jpn.] Where...

MK: [Jpn.] I don't know because I never went.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] So your husband was quite active. He was an active person.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Well, then, since he got married and started his greenhouse business, he was too busy to do many community activities...

MK: [Jpn.] But he couldn't do anything. Because he was too tired just doing his job.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] It's true.

TY: [Jpn.] Did he marry you knowing that?

MK: [Jpn.] Yes.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. Instead, I think now, if he were working for a company, it would have been easier. Uh-huh. It's true.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Then they expanded the business more and more, working hard... in that case, didn't you have time to go to school?

MK: [Jpn.] School?

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Me?

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] No time for school. Just work and work.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yes.

TY: [Jpn.] How about your husband? Did he go to school here?

MK: [Jpn.] No, he didn't.

TY: [Jpn.] He didn't.

<End Segment 19> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 20>

MK: [Jpn.] Well, my husband had an elder brother.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] He had a brother. Because he had a brother and wanted to send him to a college...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] He worked and helped him to go.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] So, my husband worked hard to send his brother to college.

TY: [Jpn.] Was that in Japan?

MK: [Jpn.] No, here.

TY: [Jpn.] Here.

MK: [Jpn.] We sent him to an American college.

TY: [Jpn.] Really. Did his brother grow up here?

MK: [Jpn.] Yes, and...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] He said it should have been the reverse. When I was in Japan, no, in the U.S., I didn't go to college. But my brother returned to Japan when he went to college here. How can he use the education? But because there was a war...

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] World War II. His brother worked for the Occupation Army. He used his English. So you can say the education helped.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] So his English (education) wasn't too bad. Because of that war.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] He worked for the Occupation Army. With his English, you know, because it was the Occupation Army, American soldiers, they need English. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] But didn't his brother come from Japan?

MK: [Jpn.] Yes.

TY: [Jpn.] Was Naoe's brother born in the U.S.?

MK: [Jpn.] No. No. Born in Japan.

TY: [Jpn.] Right.

MK: [Jpn.] Because his father was here.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] He was born in Japan, but he was sent for.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] So the two of them were called here. The father sent for them. But the elder brother was a care-free type. He wanted to do what he wanted to do.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] So he wants to do things even though he has no money. So my husband helped. He said so.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yes, he said he helped.

TY: [Jpn.] Then if his brother went to college, did he go to high school here, too?

MK: [Jpn.] Well, I don't know how far he went.

TY: [Jpn.] But he spoke English, didn't he?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. He was good at English.

TY: [Jpn.] Did your husband speak English?

MK: [Eng.] Huh?

TY: [Jpn.] Was your husband good at English?

MK: [Jpn.] No. No. That's why it should have been reverse.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh.

MK: [Jpn.] Well, my husband lived in the U.S. all that time, but he was not allowed to go to school. Instead he worked to send his brother to school, I mean, college. That's why he says it should have been the reverse. My husband said, "My brother doesn't use (English) and I use (English). I needed it but I felt sorry for my brother and so I worked hard to send him to college." Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Then, did your husband learn English by living here, just through daily life?

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

<End Segment 20> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 21>

TY: [Jpn.] Well, then, did you have a chance to meet with a non-Japanese person? Was there an incident where you had to speak with an American?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah, but there were many Japanese.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] We didn't have to worry about it in those days.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Right. And the children grow up fast.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Then the children speak English well. We didn't have to worry.

TY: [Jpn.] That's right.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. So the first generation had a hard time, but a little later the children spoke English well. So if we didn't understand something, our children helped us. So it was not difficult to live in the U.S.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Uh-huh. Thanks to the children. That's right.

TY: [Jpn.] When you left the greenhouse in South Park and started your own business, who handled English? There must have been times you had to speak English, such as buying land or placing orders.

MK: [Jpn.] No, there wasn't. There wasn't. If we need it, then a Philippi --

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] There were many people from the Philippines.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Single people.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] We hired them. We let them work.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh, I see. In the greenhouse?

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Then, when you, your father and husband started your own business, you hired those people from the Philippines?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. It's the same thing.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Well, they were the best. Because they were single. It was simpler. The Filipinos could not bring their wives. All single. Uh-huh. Yeah. They worked here and saved money and go back to Japan, no, to the Philippines, I think.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

<End Segment 21> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 22>

TY: [Jpn.] By the way, did your husband plan to go back to Japan some day?

MK: [Jpn.] No plan.

TY: [Jpn.] Not at all? Stay in the U.S.?

MK: [Jpn.] Because if I return...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] No, if my husband returned to Japan, he had no property in Japan. Nothing in Japan.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh, really?

MK: [Jpn.] If you don't have land, you cannot make a living. If you go back, you have no food. From the first day. Don't you see?

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] So, if you go back and have no house, where will you go? Nowhere to go. We have a house here.

TY: [Jpn.] That's right.

MK: [Jpn.] We have everything here. It's easy here. But you cannot tell if you can become rich or not. It depends on a person. Uh-huh. So, it is better for us to stay here.

TY: [Jpn.] Then...

MK: [Jpn.] But some people who are here had some property in Japan. Those people will return. They return.

TY: [Jpn.] Then, that was the reason for those people.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] I've often heard that the first generation Japanese worked here for a few years and wanted to return, but...

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah, that's right. That's right.

TY: [Jpn.] It didn't work out.

MK: [Jpn.] No. Some died.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Some wanted to become rich, but were poor all their lives. Some made money and went back right away.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Look at Yamaguchi Prefecture. There are some gorgeous houses there. Some people from Yamaguchi Prefecture built big houses. So they built them after they returned. But there were those people. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] So, it depends on a person.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. That's right.

<End Segment 22> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 23>

TY: [Jpn.] In that case... you spoke English earlier. Then how did you learn English?

MK: [Jpn.] My learning English? I don't know English enough to say I learned English. [Laughs] Well, I used a dictionary for writing.

TY: [Jpn.] I see. Since those days.

MK: [Jpn.] Well, it's so difficult to look something up in a dictionary. It takes time. It's better to be among Caucasians and just listen even if you don't understand. That's smarter. When you don't know much, a dictionary won't help much.

TY: [Jpn.] Didn't you remember what you studied in English classes at junior and senior high schools?

MK: [Jpn.] No. Those were nothing. No help.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. When I came to the U.S., I couldn't speak at all.

TY: [Jpn.] Didn't it help at all?

MK: [Jpn.] Think. For example, in Japan you call a garage, gradu... no, garage... you know, they call it...

TY: [Jpn.] It's "gureygee."

MK: [Jpn.] So, it's "gureygee."

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Just like that, the pronunciation is different. So it's useless.

TY: [Jpn.] I understand.

MK: [Jpn.] Uh-huh. So if you come here, it's better to go to school here. Or you live among Caucasians. Then you cannot use Japanese. Right?

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Even if you don't like it or don't understand it, you keep listening. Then gradually you understand "this" means "this." You learn without knowing.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yes, it is different from studying at school, but it helps some.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Then, in your case, you used a dictionary and learned English so that you can speak now.

MK: [Jpn.] No. I can't. I can't. Not at all.

TY: [Jpn.] But you can speak with your family members without any difficulty.

MK: [Jpn.] But they understand all of my Japanese.

TY: [Jpn.] Do you mean your children?

MK: [Jpn.] My children all understand Japanese.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] I said all, but they don't understand difficult Japanese words. They understand everyday Japanese. Every word. All seven children understand.

TY: [Jpn.] Is it because you, your husband and your father all spoke Japanese?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah, that's right. So the children, also.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Everybody knows. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] So this is the reverse of what you said earlier. You talked about living among Caucasians. This is learning Japanese by living among Japanese people.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] So if you want to learn English, even housework will do. You can do the housework at a Caucasian home.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Even with that work, they don't use Japanese to say, "Do this," or "Do that."

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] See? It's English. So you learn. I heard they had to do ironing. You had to do many things. So if you do the housework, you learn about the housework (in English). That alone will help.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Uh-huh. Yeah. So it is the best to mingle with Caucasians.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] So, your husband lived in Tacoma for a long time...

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] In the Japanese community there...

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah, there are Japanese all over. There, too.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] That sawmill. Most Japanese men went there. Maybe not all of them. Some went to work for a railroad.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] So, if you were a man, you wanted to work for a sawmill.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. That's the easiest. You don't have to speak at all.

TY: [Jpn.] I see. Even if you don't speak English...

MK: [Jpn.] Right.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. As long as you know what to do at work, that's all you need.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. Yeah.

<End Segment 23> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 24>

TY: [Jpn.] By the way, your husband was associated with many other Japanese and was active in groups, wasn't he? You said earlier that he was a member of a baseball team and also played cards...

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah, that's right. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Also other activities...

MK: [Jpn.] But, you know, the baseball team was a Japanese baseball team.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] It was not a mixed team with Caucasians. So all you see are Japanese faces.

TY: [Jpn.] You mean a photo?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. They are all Japanese.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] They formed baseball teams among Japanese.

TY: [Jpn.] By the way, when you moved to Sunnydale, you were so busy that you didn't see other people very often.

MK: [Jpn.] No time for that. We were so busy. We didn't have enough time to sleep.

TY: [Jpn.] Wasn't lonely?

MK: [Jpn.] Huh?

TY: [Jpn.] Wasn't he lonely when his life changed so much?

MK: [Jpn.] No.

TY: [Jpn.] Not lonely.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] He must have considered it a new life.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. That's right.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

<End Segment 24> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 25>

TY: [Jpn.] Now, can you tell me about your house? Did you buy the 15 acres of land together with a house?

MK: [Jpn.] Well...

TY: [Jpn.] When you bought the 15 acres of land in Sunnydale --

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] -- was there a house already or did you build it?

MK: [Jpn.] No, we bought it and had to pay a loan. So it was hard.

TY: [Jpn.] Then you bought the land with a house.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. So...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Probably it was double.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Even if we paid it back in small amounts...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Still it was difficult. Yes, it was.

TY: [Jpn.] I saw a photo of your house once. It was a rather large house, wasn't it?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Did you buy that house expecting a large family? Or did you not expect that?

MK: [Jpn.] No. We didn't think about a family at that time.

TY: [Jpn.] But did you end up living in that house till the end?

MK: [Jpn.] That's right.

TY: [Jpn.] Seven children.

MK: [Jpn.] Till we sold it.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] We lived there till we sold it. Because my husband died suddenly. Then I couldn't do it by myself. I told my first boy, the oldest boy. He wanted to go to school, but we couldn't let him. We still had small children. I felt sorry for him, but I called him back. I told him that if he wanted, he could continue the business. None of my children wanted to continue the business. I had five boys, but no one wanted to work at the greenhouse. Maybe because they knew how hard it was. How hard we worked. But it would be easier. We did all the necessary things already. We paid the land off.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Besides, once the greenhouse is built, it is easy. But they didn't want to do it. There was nothing I could do about it.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] So I made up my mind and sold everything.

TY: [Jpn.] Well, then...

MK: [Jpn.] Then...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes...

MK: [Jpn.] They had to work even though they were little.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] As soon as they came home from school, they were told to do this and do that. They had enough.

TY: [Jpn.] Then the whole family worked together.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. So even during a summer vacation, it was not a vacation. We were busy. I felt sorry for them. So they hated the greenhouse business. They didn't want to continue the business. Don't you agree? [Laughs]

TY: [Jpn.] Then your children helped with the family business during the summer...

MK: [Jpn.] Well, my husband...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes?

MK: [Jpn.] Because he died. If he had not died, we wouldn't have done it. We would have continued.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] It was over.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Uh-huh. If any of the boys wanted to do it, even one boy wanted to do it, we could have done it. But if nobody wanted to, then it was better to give up. It was better for the children. My children are happy with it now. Because we quit the business, they chose what they liked. All the children are happy. Uh-huh. That's right. They are doing what they like. I am happy that they are doing what they like. I want to say, thank you.

<End Segment 25> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 26>

TY: [Jpn.] By the way, you lived in Sunnydale which was far away from the Japanese community. What did you do about food? I mean, how did you get your food?

MK: [Jpn.] Food?

TY: [Jpn.] Yes. Where did you buy it?

MK: [Jpn.] Oh, food. If you come to Japan, no, if you come to Seattle, there are many outdoor groceries. I heard there are. Although I don't come here and so I don't know.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] That's what I heard since I came here.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] There was everything.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] There is a tofu maker, a tofu store, a fish store, a grocery, and then oh, you don't have to worry about a place to eat lunch.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] Well, what is here. Oh, yes, Kinkaro. Kinkaro sold Chinese foods. Though it was owned by a Japanese.

TY: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

MK: [Jpn.] Then if you are a Japanese, of course, you want to go to a Japanese restaurant.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Some run restaurants, don't they? So if you come to Seattle, you can get everything. Yes.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes, but Sunnydale is far away.

MK: [Jpn.] It is far away.

TY: [Jpn.] You didn't have a chance to come to Seattle.

MK: [Jpn.] So I had nothing. No Japanese foods. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Then, what kind of meals did you cook?

MK: [Jpn.] So, you had to eat American foods. American foods.

TY: [Jpn.] Potatoes?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Meat?

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Then, eating fish...

MK: [Eng.] But...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes?

MK: [Jpn.] Sometimes we bought fish in Seattle.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] And now Uwajimaya...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] The father. The father of the current owner was living in Tacoma.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] So he came there and did business. So many people were happy, I heard.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] Uh-huh. The father did the business.

TY: [Jpn.] I understand.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Then did your husband or father go to a Japanese town to do shopping?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. But when my father was alive, he didn't go out.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] My husband went shopping sometimes. Uh-huh. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Did you miss Japanese foods?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. I did.

TY: [Jpn.] Naturally.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Particularly since you are from Fukui Prefecture where you get wonderful fish from the Sea of Japan.

MK: [Jpn.] That's right.

TY: [Jpn.] You must miss it.

MK: [Jpn.] Of course, I did.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Japanese people cannot live without fish.

TY: [Jpn.] That's right.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. I didn't care for meat very much. Though it's changed now.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Then you hardly had a chance to eat fish.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. But sometimes a man came to sell fish.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh.

MK: [Jpn.] You could buy it.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. Besides, if you like fishing, you can go fishing.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] So you can catch yourself.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes. Then you cook the fish.

MK: [Jpn.] A lot. In Seattle there are a lot of shiners. About this big.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Didn't you call that shiner? A small one. This big. I heard there were tons of them.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] How did you eat them?

MK: [Jpn.] Then perch. A perch is about this big. A round fish which looks like a perch. Perch. I hear there were a lot of them. I have never seen one.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] I heard about it a lot.

TY: [Jpn.] So people here were eating those kinds of fish.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. Uh-huh. So if you go fishing, you can have fish anytime you want. Yeah. There were a lot in those days. It's different now, though.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] We had everything in those days. Now less and less.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. It cannot be helped.

TY: [Jpn.] So you were too busy with the greenhouse, and you didn't have time to come to Seattle to eat Japanese foods?

MK: [Jpn.] No. No. No time.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] I have never been.

TY: [Jpn.] Did you wish you could eat it?

MK: [Jpn.] But, on the fourth of July...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

<End Segment 26> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 27>

MK: [Jpn.] But every year, on the Fourth of July, my husband took me to Point Defiance in Tacoma. It's because he spent most of his life or most of his adult life there. In Tacoma.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] That's why he takes me. He misses Tacoma.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Then you spent the whole day on that outing. That was the only holiday you really had, wasn't it?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. That's right.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Uh-huh. That's the only time.

TY: [Jpn.] Then did you take off your work clothes?

MK: [Jpn.] Yes. Of course. That's the proper thing to do.

TY: [Jpn.] What kind of clothes did you wear for such an occasion?

MK: [Jpn.] That's of course...

TY: [Jpn.] Proper clothes.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. Naturally. You have to dress like a Caucasian.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Otherwise, you would look funny when you go out.

TY: [Jpn.] I see. Then you might come across somebody you had not seen for a long time.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. But when l look back... I didn't think of this at that time, but Caucasians don't have many children. Not many children.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. So if we took our children with us, one by one, the Caucasians would have been surprised. [Laughs] I felt so. Even I took only four of my children.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] They look like a lot of children.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Well, the Caucasians have two children or so. Yeah. But I had that many, but I didn't think I had too many. Because they were my children.

<End Segment 27> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 28>

TY: [Jpn.] Well then, did your children start going to school in Sunnydale?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] By the way, many Japanese people in Seattle sent their children to a Japanese school.

MK: [Jpn.] Uh-huh. That's right. That was Japanese... people living here...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Japanese school...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] I heard they sent their children there.

TY: [Jpn.] But you lived far away. It was too difficult for you to take your children there every Sunday, every Saturday, wasn't it?

MK: [Jpn.] Yes. It was too difficult. It was too far.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Uh-huh. That was for people who live here in Seattle...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Especially. There is still a Japanese school here, you know.

TY: [Jpn.] That's true.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Then did your children learn Japanese at home?

MK: [Jpn.] That's right. They learn English and Japanese as much as we spoke at home.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Uh-huh. When they got scolded. [Laughs]

TY: [Jpn.] In Japanese?

MK: [Jpn.] When they were bad.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] When you have many children, you cannot be smiling all the time. Really.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Sometimes I yelled at them.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] We are so busy, but the children don't understand. They do everything. We lived in the country and had a plenty of land.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Therefore...

TY: [Jpn.] There is a plenty of room to run around.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. They didn't have to go outside. Our place was so big. The children had plenty of space to play at home.

TY: [Jpn.] The house I saw in the photo was big.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] The house was big enough for all those children. Big enough for a large family.

MK: [Jpn.] Yes. That's right. The children still fought even when they got older. [Laughs] But I think it's great to grow up in a large family. Yeah. I grew up alone. Grandfather... I look back now...when you grow up...

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Better to be brought up by young people. If you were raised by an old person, you cannot do anything. A young mother and father will spank the children when they behave badly, and teach many things... also because I didn't have a brother or sister, I don't know what it's like to have one. So I think the happiest person in the world is the one who grew up with a family, with brothers and sisters. That's the greatest happiness.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] I believe so. Maybe because I could not have it.

TY: [Jpn.] Right.

MK: [Jpn.] So when someone says she is going back to Japan to see a brother or sister that she grew up with, I feel very envious.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Uh-huh. Yeah. So that person is really a lucky person. So brothers and sisters are good things to have no matter how old you become. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Then your children loved one another even though they fought.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. That's right. So when I hear someone going back to Japan...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] What a wonderful thing it is, I think. Uh-huh. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] By the way, changing the subject to your children, you gave birth to your first daughter, Lillian, in May of 1932.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Right.

MK: [Jpn.] That's right.

<End Segment 28> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 29>

TY: [Jpn.] So you were raised by your grandfather and had no women to raise you. Although you had women as neighbors or friends.

MK: [Jpn.] Well...

TY: [Jpn.] In Japan.

MK: [Jpn.] In Japan?

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] My grandmother...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Because she died before I was born.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] So she couldn't take care of me.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] And my grandfather's four brothers... sons. I didn't know them growing up. Yeah. So by the time I grew up, everybody had left.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] So my grandfather and I, two of us, were alone. Besides, we were the only family in the village who came to the U.S. So I felt I was the only one left. So different in the village. Don't you see? Everybody had parents, brothers, sisters, grandfathers and grandmothers. Everybody did. I didn't understand then. I couldn't think that way then. I was a small child. I didn't think that way then, but now I look back the way it was and think they were very lucky. Everybody was so lucky in that village.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. But if you don't know you are happy, you are not happy.

TY: [Jpn.] That's right.

MK: [Jpn.] So if don't know it...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Uh-huh. Yeah. So you have to know it. Yeah. So I think. So... but I don't think I was unhappy.

TY: [Jpn.] I see. Did you ever think you were?

MK: [Jpn.] No. No. Probably because my grandfather loved me very much.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] So I never once wished I were just like someone else.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. So, although my grandfather didn't say much...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] He loved me completely.

TY: [Jpn.] I hear he didn't speak much.

MK: [Jpn.] He didn't speak.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] So I feel like he never spoke all his life.

TY: [Jpn.] Really?

MK: [Jpn.] So when I started working in the greenhouse, I worked in the greenhouse and then went outside. I quit and came outside. When I came out, I thought, well, I had a difficult life. People need to speak. Only when you speak, your mouth starts moving well.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Imagine you don't speak to anybody at all, if you spend all day only with flowers, plants... if you don't speak. In those days, there wasn't any TV or radio. Nothing. You are in a very lonely place. But you don't even know that. You don't think you are lonely. Because you have to make a living. You have to eat. I didn't feel lonely, but...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] But later on I felt so.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] After I quit the work, I thought about many things. I remembered things. I should have done this. I should have done that. I thought a lot. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] But it was not painful for you when you didn't speak to anybody. Was it because you were used to it?

MK: [Jpn.] No. I was just so busy.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Because, if you don't do it right, if you make one mistake, that would affect our finances. Whether you can sell it or not. Do you see? Because we made a living by selling them. So you have to make high quality stuff. We cannot afford to lose money. We will be in trouble. So an individual's wish to do this or that doesn't count. You just have to do what you have to do at that moment. You just have to do it. So there is no time to think about other things. Of course, if you had a plenty of money, you can hire workers and you can have an easy life. But no Japanese immigrants could do that in those days. Uh-huh. Everybody was in the same situation. Well, there might be somebody who was not the same, who was rich, but I don't know. Uh-huh.

<End Segment 29> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 30>

TY: [Jpn.] Yes. Then, well, when you were pregnant with Lillian...

MK: [Jpn.] Yes.

TY: [Jpn.] Then...

MK: [Jpn.] And then...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Well, South Park...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Well, we often went to my uncle Araki's place.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] They, they loved Lillian most. Wherever we went, Lillian was loved most.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] The younger children were not loved as much. How strange!

TY: [Jpn.] I see. I hear your husband loved Lillian most.

MK: [Jpn.] Yes. He loved her. Also Aunt Araki did.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] My uncle also loved only Lillian. How strange!

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. They loved her very much.

TY: [Jpn.] By the way, did you go see a doctor during the pregnancy? For a check-up?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. You mean at birth?

TY: [Jpn.] Before the birth. During the pregnancy.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. That's right.

TY: [Jpn.] People go to see doctors for check-ups.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Did you see a Japanese doctor for that?

MK: [Jpn.] At that time...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] We had a midwife.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh.

MK: [Jpn.] Just like in Japan.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] You have midwives in Japan. Well, maybe she doesn't know. [points to AI]

TY: [Jpn.] I see. What is a "midwife"?

MK: [Jpn.] A midwife is a person who helps with childbirth.

TY: [Jpn.] At the house of a pregnant woman?

MK: [Jpn.] No. No. Yeah. Yeah. That's right.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] She comes to your house and helps with childbirth.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] That's called "midwife". Midwife.

TY: [Jpn.] Then, did she live in Sunnydale?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. A Japanese person.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] There was one.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] A midwife came from Japan...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] A woman with that job was going around the area.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. She did. But the last of my children... the last two were born at a hospital. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Then the first five were born with the midwife.

MK: [Jpn.] One, two, three, four. That's right. Four. About five.

TY: [Jpn.] That's four, isn't it?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] I see. Then you call up a midwife and ask her to come when you are ready to give birth.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. That's right.

TY: [Jpn.] I see. Then...

MK: [Jpn.] I am allowed to give birth at home. In Japan, too, a child was born at home, right?

TY: [Jpn.] They did in the old days.

MK: [Jpn.] It was that way in the old days. Well, but if you are in the military, it's different. You can go to a hospital and then give birth at a hospital. If your husband is in the military. But most of us who are farmers have no such chance. So we use a midwife. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Then when you notice your pregnancy...

MK: [Jpn.] The midwife comes around the neighborhood and checks on you.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh, I see.

MK: [Jpn.] See? The midwife does everything for you.

TY: [Jpn.] Then the midwife visits you regularly to check on you.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. That's right. She touches your belly to check.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Well, I don't know much, but they say some babies are in the wrong position or such. Something like that. So she goes around to check.

<End Segment 30> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 31>

TY: [Jpn.] Then, how did you contact the midwife? How did you find her?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. She is in Seattle. Since she is in Seattle, everybody knows her.

TY: [Jpn.] Only one?

MK: [Jpn.] Two or three. Probably two people. I am not sure.

TY: [Jpn.] Do you remember her name?

MK: [Jpn.] Well, what was her name? That midwife. I wonder if anyone at that time is still alive now. I wonder if all of them are dead.

TY: [Sneezes] [Jpn.] Excuse me.

MK: [Jpn.] Probably nobody is alive.

TY: [Jpn.] Then when you lived in Sunnydale...

MK: [Jpn.] Oh...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Oh, Mrs. Kodama might know.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Of Sunnydale.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] You know Mrs. Kodama, don't you? Yes. She must know.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Then, you had four children in Sunnydale. Were they all assisted by the same midwife?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] All by the same midwife.

MK: [Jpn.] Yes. That's right.

TY: [Jpn.] Did you contact her by telephone?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah, that's right. We must have called her. If you didn't, she wouldn't have known.

TY: [Jpn.] The midwife has a hard job. She has to go visit many people.

MK: [Jpn.] Well, she can drive a car.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh, I see.

MK: [Jpn.] The midwife can drive.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh, so she comes by car.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] She goes everywhere.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Then she must have known many people.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Then, when a baby is about to be born, you call her and she comes around the due date...

MK: [Jpn.] Yes. That's right.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] And the midwife knows everybody's due dates because she goes around.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] So she must know that. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] So how far into (the pregnancy) did you work? At the greenhouse?

MK: [Jpn.] Well, probably till I got abdominal pain.

TY: [Jpn.] You couldn't take time off.

MK: [Jpn.] It's too cruel to make me work till the birth pain.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Did you reduce the amount of work?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. You notice the change. So at that time, I think I called up by telephone.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] I think my husband called up.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

<End Segment 31> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 32>

TY: [Jpn.] By the way, did you ever reduce the amount of work since you found out you were pregnant?

MK: [Jpn.] What?

TY: [Jpn.] Did you reduce the amount of work? Or did you take a day off?

MK: [Jpn.] Even if you want to, there is no way to reduce. Impossible.

TY: [Jpn.] I understand.

MK: [Jpn.] But you cannot work fast. You become slow. Everything slows down.

TY: [Jpn.] Because you are heavy.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] But wasn't it hard to work in the hot greenhouse?

MK: [Jpn.] But...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] My delivery was very easy because I was working.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] See. If you just stay home, your delivery will be very difficult. Because we have been moving around, because we could not stop working just because we were pregnant, our childbirths were easy.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] That was a great benefit. Uh-huh. True.

TY: [Jpn.] Then did you have easy births for all the seven children?

MK: [Jpn.] No. The last two were born at a hospital.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh, yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Uh-huh. Oh, the one was born in the camp.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Well, one was born in the camp in Wyoming. So he is a Wyoming boy. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] So the first four were born in Sunnydale.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] By the way, when you had your first child...

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. It was painful. Yeah. I cried. [Laughs]

TY: [Jpn.] Did you have somebody you can ask for help besides the midwife?

MK: [Jpn.] I had the midwife.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] You don't need others. Everybody does it just with a midwife.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Isn't it so in Japan, too? The midwife does everything.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] I never heard of two midwives. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Then, Lilly was born at home.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Eng.] But then, did the midwife do everything without any help?

MK: [Jpn.] Yes.

TY: [Jpn.] By herself?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. The midwife... this one was born in South Park.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Then another year.

MK: [Jpn.] And...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Oh, when Roy was born...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] I came here from Sunnydale to help.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Because my uncle's business was very busy.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] So, I was pregnant, but I didn't have much to do at home. So I came here.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Then I carried heavy bundles. You collect many flowers and make a bundle. Into one bundle. I was doing it. Suddenly I felt abdominal pain. As soon as I arrived in a hospital, I gave birth. So the baby weighed only three pounds.

TY: [Jpn.] Was that baby Roy?

MK: [Jpn.] Because he was born prematurely, he didn't weigh much. Because I did more than I could, he was born. Because I carried heavy bundles.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh, then the baby...

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. He is fine.

TY: [Jpn.] Which baby was it?

MK: [Jpn.] Yes, the baby was born at home. He was born at South Park. When I went to South Park to help.

TY: [Jpn.] That is...

MK: [Jpn.] Because I went to my uncle's to help, and carried heavy bundles, it came out suddenly. So he weighed only three pounds. I think.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] So, the baby's face was dark. It had a bad complexion. Because it was too small.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] So we took him to a hospital right away and he grew up in an incubator in a hospital.

TY: [Jpn.] Which one is he? Out of seven?

MK: [Jpn.] Well, it is Roy and so the first.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh, the second boy.

MK: [Jpn.] No. The first was a girl.

TY: [Jpn.] Lilly.

MK: [Jpn.] The second is Roy.

TY: [Jpn.] Roy.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Then, Roy was born prematurely.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah, that's right.

TY: [Jpn.] Then, Lilly was born in South Park. No. Where was Lilly?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. Both of them were in South Park. I went there to help and gave birth there. Because I carried too heavy things. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] But I am glad he grew up healthy.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. And then...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] And three months later...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Well, what do you say here, that one, which comes out? Hernia?

TY: [Jpn.] Yes. Hernia?

MK: [Jpn.] Hernia. The boy was small and cried hard.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Because he cried so much, the intestine came out from here.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] So he had an operation. At that time. Though he was little.

TY: [Jpn.] He was so small.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh.

MK: [Jpn.] Since it was an operation, they must have given him stitches.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh.

MK: [Jpn.] I don't know what they did. They did some kind of operation. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] I see. Where was that hospital?

MK: [Eng.] Huh?

TY: [Jpn.] Where was the hospital?

MK: [Jpn.] Oh, in Seattle.

TY: [Jpn.] It must have been difficult to go from Sunnydale.

MK: [Jpn.] No. No. I was in South Park. South Park is close to Seattle.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh, because you were helping them.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] It was not Sunnydale. He was born in South Park. So it was close.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] So the hospital was close. Yeah. So my uncle and aunt took good care of us. Instead of my helping them, they had to help me a lot.

TY: [Jpn.] But when you have relatives nearby...

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] You feel safe and secure.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

<End Segment 32> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 33>

TY: [Jpn.] Were the Arakis your only relatives?

MK: [Jpn.] What?

TY: [Jpn.] Your family in the U.S.

MK: [Jpn.] That's right.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Well, that's right. Your husband was left alone, wasn't he?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah, that's right.

TY: [Jpn.] His father returned.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Then during that time, were your father and husband managing the business in Sunnydale?

MK: [Jpn.] Who?

TY: [Jpn.] While you were helping at South Park, Sunnydale was taken care of by your father and husband.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah, uh-huh... No. We left my father alone at home.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh.

MK: [Jpn.] Well he told us to go to help. He was too old.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Help.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh, did your husband go, too?

MK: [Jpn.] Yes, that's why we...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] My husband and I came here to help.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] We say help, but it wasn't help at all. Instead it was a lot of trouble.

TY: [Jpn.] I see. But it turned out well.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] Life brings a lot of unexpected things.

<End Segment 33> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 34>

TY: [Jpn.] By the way, in 1935, two years later, Betty, the third child, was born.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Then where was she born?

MK: [Jpn.] At home.

TY: [Jpn.] At home in Sunnydale?

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] There was no problem?

MK: [Jpn.] No. Nothing.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Then within three years, within three years since Lilly was born, three children were born.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Well, then, in addition to the baby, you had a one year old and a two year old. You had the toddlers and the baby.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] What did you do with the work? When you had one child, you told us earlier how you did...

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] You made sure the baby wouldn't move away.

MK: [Jpn.] Then...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Then older children take care of younger ones.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] They take care of a little one.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] So that's a great help.

TY: [Jpn.] Then Lilly who was just three or four took care of younger brothers...

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. But when we work in the greenhouse...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] When she comes home from school, she takes care of younger ones.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] The older one. That's how we did. They took turns. Everybody in the U.S. did it that way. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] So an older brother or sister takes care of younger children.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. That's right. Of course if there was a grandmother, it would be different.

TY: [Jpn.] Of course.

MK: [Jpn.] If there was a grandmother. But I don't think there were any grandmothers. In those days. People of similar age came here. Everybody was of similar age.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

<End Segment 34> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 35>

TY: [Jpn.] Well, your first daughter Lillian was born in May 1932 and your first son Roy was born in April 1933...

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Then three, no, two years later in March 1935. All were born in spring.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Betty was born.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. That's right.

TY: [Jpn.] All of them have English first names, don't they?

MK: [Jpn.] Well, they have two names.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] A Japanese name and an English name.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah, we gave two names.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh, they...

AI: [Eng.] What, what are they?

TY: [Jpn.] Will you tell us their Japanese names?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. Setsuko Lillian.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Then, Betty, oh, Yoriko.

TY: [Jpn.] Yoriko?

MK: [Jpn.] Then...

TY: [Jpn.] How about Roy?

MK: [Jpn.] Who?

TY: [Jpn.] Roy.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. Roy doesn't have one. His name is Roy. Why didn't we give him two names? He is the only one.

TY: [Jpn.] For no special reason.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah, He is the only one who doesn't have two. That's better. It's simpler.

TY: [Jpn.] Then all of your children have English first names and Japanese middle names.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. That's right.

TY: [Jpn.] Why did you give English first names? It varies among the Japanese immigrants. Some gave their children Japanese first names, making full Japanese names.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] They were born here.

MK: [Jpn.] Younger ones all have both names.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] By the way, how did you choose those names, Roy and Betty?

MK: [Jpn.] My husband named them.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Did he choose?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] You had no objection?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. That's right. No. I had no objection. [Laughs]

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Then how about Japanese names? Did you choose them together or did your husband choose?

MK: [Jpn.] No. My husband named them with the names he liked.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Then, did you use their English names both at home and outside?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Did your children?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. It was better to have both in those days.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] But some of the first generation Japanese gave only Japanese names to their children.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. That's right. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] But you and your husband gave English names to all of your children.

MK: [Jpn.] Most of Japanese gave English names, I think.

TY: [Jpn.] Probably so. Quite a few. Others have English nicknames.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes, there are those.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

<End Segment 35> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 36>

TY: [Jpn.] By the way, from 1937 to 1938, when your oldest daughter Lilly was five or six years old, your father returned to Japan, didn't he?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] I see. Then...

MK: [Jpn.] Well, that was before the war.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes. Did your father plan to come back to the U.S. at that time?

MK: [Jpn.] No, no, no. See, he believed that if he had stayed here, he would be killed.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh.

MK: [Jpn.] He thought he would be killed if he had stayed in the U.S.

TY: [Jpn.] During the Pacific War.

MK: [Jpn.] A little more... if a war started...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] If he were in the U.S., he thought he would be killed. Because he was a Japanese soldier. Everyone would be killed.

TY: [Jpn.] Which war did your father fight?

MK: [Jpn.] Oh, that was the Imperial Guards. The Imperial Guards mean, but I wasn't told about it.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] The last time my brother returned, he told me so. He said, "Our father was an Imperial Guard." I said, "Is that right? But I never heard of it." The Imperial Guards were the very top. I said, "They may not be right next to the Emperor, but they guard the Emperor." I wonder why he never mentioned that to us while he was in the U.S. He was here a long time. I told my brother, "I never heard of it." When my brother came from Japan...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Well, he came here once from Japan. He came here once.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] I told him. I said, "But I never heard of it," but he said it was true. I believe what my brother says. But I don't know much about it, so I don't talk about it.

TY: [Jpn.] Then your father was concerned about his own past while he was living in the U.S.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] So, if the U.S. and Japan fought a war...

MK: [Jpn.] Maybe, maybe because he was a soldier before, he thought he was in danger if something happened. But I have no idea.

TY: [Jpn.] He didn't say anything like that. I see.

MK: [Jpn.] He just said he was going back because he would be killed if he stayed here. [Laughs]

TY: [Jpn.] Really?

MK: [Jpn.] I remember that very well.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh, he said so and...

MK: [Jpn.] Uh-huh. So he said he didn't want to stay here even for one more day.

TY: [Jpn.] Then did he hear something from somewhere? Do you think?

MK: [Jpn.] Well, that information came long after my father died. So I am not sure.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] So I don't know anything about it.

TY: [Jpn.] Did he subscribe to a Japanese newspaper?

MK: [Jpn.] No. No. I don't know anything about such a thing.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] So I don't want to hear about that type of thing.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. When he was in Japan, he was really...

TY: [Jpn.] Well, yes...

MK: [Jpn.] If he was really... it could be true, but he never said so.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] So my family was not poor.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] They don't take anything from a poor family. You see. They check your family history and other things. That one.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] See? The Imperial Guards.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] Really. Besides, you have to have a good body. Also you have to have a good character. Otherwise you won't pass. Of course your family has to have money. So if you meet those three criteria, then... of course, they take only three men from each prefecture.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. So if he was chosen, then I wonder why he didn't tell us if he really was an Imperial Guard.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] I don't know. I don't believe it.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Then will you tell us more tomorrow?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Then we are done for today.

MK: [Jpn.] Thank you very much.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh, no. Not at all.

MK: [Jpn.] Thank you for doing this for a long time when it is so hot. I put you through hardship for me.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh, no. I had fun.

MK: [Jpn.] Thank you very much. I don't know how to thank you enough. Thank you very much.

<End Segment 36> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 37>

AI: [Eng.] Continuing our interview with Marian Asao Kurosu. And I'm Alice Ito, with the Densho project, with Tomoyo Yamada, interviewing. And John Pai, videographer.

TY: [Jpn.] Well, during our session yesterday, we were discussing the late 1930's.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] In April 1939 your fourth son Donald was born.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Well, in 1939, your oldest daughter Lilly was seven years old and so your children all started school.

MK: [Jpn.] Uh-huh, yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] By the way, in those days your children all had U.S. citizenship because they were born in the U.S., but you and your husband didn't. Were you worried about it in any way?

MK: [Jpn.] What?

TY: [Jpn.] The first generation Japanese could not get citizenship, could they?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah, we couldn't.

TY: [Jpn.] Did you worry about that?

MK: [Jpn.] Yes, that's the reason we couldn't buy land.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] I mean the first generation. So all of us rented the land from Caucasians.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] Many of us did farming. That was fine. But if you wanted to own land yourself, then you couldn't buy it.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. So some people borrowed names of American-born persons and used them to buy land. Also if you want to start your own business, you couldn't.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] Unless you borrowed a name. Some people did that. Not everybody. Some people. Uh-huh.

<End Segment 37> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 38>

TY: [Jpn.] So, your children started going to school in Sunnydale...

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] But there were only a few Japanese families there.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah, only a few. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] So you could not go to a Japanese school because they were all in Seattle and were too far...

MK: [Jpn.] Well there were only, only American schools.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah. Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] There were no Japanese schools in the countryside.

TY: [Jpn.] There was none.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] They were too far, weren't they?

MK: [Jpn.] Well, if you lived in Seattle, you could go to a Japanese school, but there were none in the countryside. So...

TY: [Jpn.] In that case, your children were educated in American schools...

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Probably you used Japanese at home, but Japanese...

MK: [Jpn.] You cannot use Japanese. All of my children spoke English.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Did you worry about that? Were you concerned?

MK: [Jpn.] No, not much. Japanese children are all very obedient.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. So I don't think there was much trouble with them. Besides, Japanese children study hard. So no matter where they go, they get good grades. Because they study hard.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] But were you concerned that your children were not exposed to Japanese culture?

MK: [Jpn.] But those living in Settle...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] I heard that they sent their children to Japanese schools.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] But I lived in the countryside. Because there was no Japanese school. But there were Japanese schools in Seattle. So everybody went to a Japanese school. So they can speak Japanese pretty well. Uh-huh. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] But your children learned Japanese because you spoke Japanese at home.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah, they learned only what we spoke at home.

TY: [Jpn.] If there were a Japanese school, would you have sent your children there? If it were nearby.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. If there were a Japanese school, I would have let them go there.

TY: [Jpn.] Then they can learn the language and culture.

MK: [Jpn.] That's right. Well you never lose if you learn a language no matter what.

TY: [Jpn.] Well, then, did your children learn the language naturally rather than you taught them?

MK: [Jpn.] No. No. There wasn't.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh, I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. We don't have enough people in the countryside.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] It won't work out. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Well, then, is there anything you wanted your children to learn as Japanese children? Anything you wanted to teach?

MK: [Jpn.] No, not in particular.

TY: [Jpn.] No such thing?

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Besides, in the country, children were just children whether they were Caucasians or not. Children don't think that, "I am a Japanese and he is a Chinese." The children don't think like that at all. They regard everybody equally. So there was no problem. Yeah.

<End Segment 38> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 39>

TY: [Jpn.] By the way, it was 1938 that your brother Yoneichi was killed in the war.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] How did you know that?

MK: [Jpn.] Oh, a letter.

TY: [Jpn.] Letter. From whom?

MK: [Jpn.] Well, I wonder who told us. They told my father. Because I wasn't there.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] So I wonder from whom my father received that letter. Oh, Akira --

TY: [Jpn.] From Akira?

MK: [Jpn.] Did Akira die in the war? He wasn't killed in the war. He was alive. I wonder who sent that letter. My father didn't say anything, so I don't know. He didn't tell who sent the letter.

TY: [Jpn.] Yoneichi was in Manchuria, wasn't he? In Manchuria.

MK: [Jpn.] Oh, yeah. That's right.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] And so your father received that news...

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] I heard that he cried.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. That's right. I heard he cried. I heard from a friend of mine. That's all I know.

TY: [Jpn.] Even if he didn't grow up with his father, they were still a father and a son, weren't they?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. Right. But we didn't live with our father when we were small. It was only after I graduated from the women's high school and came to the U.S. that I started living with my father. So we are not that close. It's like a stranger.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. Really. If you don't live together, you don't feel like a parent and a child.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] Uh-huh. If you live together, you will love a child of another person. You start loving that child. Some people adopt small children, then those children are just like your own children. Just like a real family.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. So if you don't live together, real love will not grow. I believe that.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Uh-huh. So if a parent and a child don't live together, they are just the same as strangers. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes. By the way, Akira went to Manchuria, too, didn't he?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Akira who raised Hideo...

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. Akira, Yoneichi and also Yoneichi's adoptive parent went to that war.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] They went there at the same time. Yeah. I heard his adoptive father say. I understand they fought in the same area. So he told him to keep his head low and never to lift it up, but he lifted his head and that's why he got shot here.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] He said he had told him. He told him but he lifted his head. So a bullet hit him on the cheek. That's why he was killed.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] His adoptive father told us he had said so.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Uh-huh. He said he had warned.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] By the way, how did you feel when your younger brother died? Even if you didn't grow up with him.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, yeah, mm.

TY: [Jpn.] Weren't you concerned about Japan?

MK: [Jpn.] Japan?

TY: [Jpn.] Yes, the war was on at that time.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah, that's right. Because the war was on, we couldn't correspond.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Nothing until the war was over.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

<End Segment 39> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 40>

TY: [Jpn.] Then, Hideo graduated from a school and came to visit.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah, that's right.

TY: [Jpn.] Which side wanted the visit?

MK: [Jpn.] No. We didn't ask him to come. His parents sent him to us.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] His adoptive parents sent him here because we had not seen him for a long time. They thought we must have missed him. So Hiroshi, oh, Akira, Akira and his wife...

TY: [Jpn.] What?

MK: [Jpn.] I guess they sent him here.

TY: [Jpn.] Was that because...

MK: [Jpn.] Because they wanted him to meet our father and us. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] The reason Hideo could come to the U.S. was because he was born here, wasn't it? In those days, Japanese people...

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah, that's right. He was the first. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] If he were a Japanese, he wouldn't have been allowed in.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] So what did you think of him when you first saw him? It was almost the first time, wasn't it? You saw him only when he was a baby.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. That was the first time. He was so open. His parents must have raised him very lovingly.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Uh-huh. He was nice. Uh-huh, yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] And then he was just visiting the U.S., but the war started...

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Huh.

MK: [Jpn.] That's right. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] He ended up staying here, didn't he? Because he couldn't return.

MK: [Jpn.] So I felt sorry for him, but it couldn't be helped. He just couldn't go home.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] So he went to the camp and endured for four years. Shikata-ga nai. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Well, let me see, your father returned to Japan just before the war started.

MK: [Jpn.] Uh-huh. So he never saw Hideo again after that.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

<End Segment 40> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 41>

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. No. Hideo returned once after living here for four years. He returned to Japan. Then I heard they lived together.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh, is that right?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. He lived with our father, but didn't look very happy. The letter said so.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. As you know, my father is a little short-tempered.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. It didn't sound like they got along very well.

TY: [Jpn.] I hear there was trouble when they lived in the U.S.

MK: [Jpn.] No. No. No. Since he had nothing to do, he helped us for a while. Then my father says to him, "No, don't do that, do this," throughout the day. He complained all the time. It was so annoying and so he ran away to South Park.

TY:[Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] He ran away to his uncle.

TY: [Jpn.] I was told that he walked all the way.

MK: [Jpn.] I heard he walked. In the middle of the night. We didn't go out in the middle of the night in those days.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes, I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] If he had left during the day...

MK: [Jpn.] That's right.

TY: [Jpn.] Because his family would stop him.

MK: [Jpn.] But if you walked, that was a deserted road.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] There were no lights. Nothing.

TY: [Jpn.] It was pitch dark, wasn't it?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. I am amazed that he returned.

TY: [Jpn.] Without getting lost.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. If he had told us, my husband would have taken him there. But he didn't tell us and ran away in the middle of night. We didn't know. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] And did he leave a note or something?

MK: [Jpn.] What?

TY: [Jpn.] Did he leave a note? How did you know that he went to the Arakis?

MK: [Jpn.] Since he disappeared, we knew. He didn't show up in the morning.

TY:[Jpn.] I see. Did the Arakis contact you?

MK: [Jpn.] No. Without contact we knew. Because he disappeared, he went there. He had nowhere else to go.

TY: [Jpn.] That's right.

MK: [Jpn.] For us the Arakis were the only place to go because we had no other relatives. They are the only relatives. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] I see. So he stayed with the Arakis because he didn't get along with his father.

MK: [Jpn.] No, well, before the war started...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] So after the war started, he came once to our place. Because if we didn't go together...

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] We went to the same camp.

TY: [Jpn.] That's right.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] By the way, your father returned to Japan before the war. He returned because he was concerned for his own safety.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah, that's right.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

<End Segment 41> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 42>

TY: [Jpn.] And then on December 7th, on December 7th in 1941 there was a bombing on Pearl Harbor. The Japanese military gave a surprise attack on Pearl Harbor.

MK: [Jpn.] Oh, yeah. That's right. That's right.

TY: [Jpn.] So do you remember that time?

MK: [Jpn.] After that, how...

TY: [Jpn.] How did you hear the news?

MK: [Jpn.] What?

TY: [Jpn.] How did you hear about the bombing of Pearl Harbor?

MK: [Jpn.] Well, everybody knew it even if they didn't tell us. Individuals may have said so, but we couldn't correspond any longer.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah. Well, then, how did you know that Pearl Harbor was bombed? How did you and your family find out?

MK: [Jpn.] Oh, through a newspaper. They said it on the news.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] So you found out right away. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] What did you think of it?

MK: [Jpn.] Wow, great... that tiny country...

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] How in the world did they do that against this huge country?

TY: [Jpn.] Huh.

MK: [Jpn.] Isn't it right?

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] The U.S. is such a big country and has nothing to worry about. But Japan is such a small country. What does it have? It's a small island country. Yeah. Well, in those days, the military had a huge amount of power. Nobody could control them. But I think the Emperor did not want to wage this war. Uh-huh, yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Then, before the war started, did you think there might be a war?

MK: [Jpn.] Huh?

TY: [Jpn.] Possibly...

MK: [Jpn.] Oh, we discuss it sometimes.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] Well, but they could not imagine that Japan would come here.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. See? We can imagine the U.S. coming to Japan, but we couldn't imagine Japan coming to the U.S.

TY: [Jpn.] I see. Then, what did you think of your future now that you were citizens of the enemy?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. That's right. Because we were "enemy foreigners," we were all put away.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Well, those of us who were living along this Coast were all sent (to camps).

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] They put all of us away including children, even newborn babies.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] It's so cruel.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] They put all of us away.

<End Segment 42> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 43>

TY: [Jpn.] When the war started between Japan and the U.S., what did you think of it?

MK: [Jpn.] Huh. But then, what do you say to that? Curfew time. Cur... cur... that thing... we Japanese couldn't go out after dark.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh, curfew.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. Only during the designated time. Except for business...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] We couldn't go out. Because we operated greenhouses, we, my husband could go out a little. But not as much as before. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Also, the curfew meant not only you couldn't go out but also you had to keep the house dark...

MK: [Jpn.] No. There was a curfew time.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes. Uh-huh.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Everybody closed their windows so that the light would not leak... I heard you closed your windows...

MK: [Jpn.] No. So that the light wouldn't show. I remember something like that.

TY: [Jpn.] Then, what did you do with the lights in the greenhouses? They had glass panels, didn't they?

MK: [Jpn.] Oh, those. You could turn them off any time. In those days, you just turn off the electricity, and then they were off. It's not like nowadays. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Then, did it not interfere with the greenhouse operations?

MK: [Jpn.] Well, we didn't work at night under those situations.

TY: [Jpn.] I see. You couldn't if you wanted to, could you?

MK: [Jpn.] Just during the day. We could never use the lights during the night. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah. Then, were you worried about your business? I mean the greenhouse business?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. But the business was all ruined.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] By the way, did you and your husband tell your children or did you hide it?

MK: [Jpn.] No. The children wouldn't be able to help us if we told them...

TY: [Jpn.] You are right. They were young.

MK: [Jpn.] Well, besides, there wasn't any to discuss with them.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] This is a serious business. It's a major thing.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yes.

<End Segment 43> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 44>

TY: [Jpn.] Well, did your children experience any meanness at school after the war started?

MK: [Jpn.] Well, let me see. They were called "Jap." Yeah. Of course everybody hated them. That's natural.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

[Interruption]

MK: [Jpn.] Therefore it was only natural that we were put into camps.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Into camps. Yeah. The Americans were afraid of the Japanese after such an incident.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] See? They were afraid of the Japanese. So the FBI took all the top Japanese people who were members of the Japanese American Association or any other organizations. They were taken to a special place. All of them.

TY: [Jpn.] Sunnydale was far away from the places of such stories. So...

MK: [Jpn.] That's right. They were afraid that we might do something.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Then the war started. So the FBI came. FBI investigated every Japanese house from the basement up to the second floor. That, FBI did.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] They investigated everywhere.

TY: [Jpn.] Your house, too?

MK: [Jpn.] Oh, everywhere, they investigated each and every Japanese house.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Then, many first generation Japanese were taken away. They were arrested.

MK: [Jpn.] Those people were...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] ...not here any more.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] How did you hear such a story in Sunnydale?

MK: [Jpn.] No, we didn't know at all.

TY: [Jpn.] Did you hear that later?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. I heard it later. Till then, we couldn't correspond at all.

TY: [Jpn.] I see. In that case, when the FBI actually came to your house...

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Haven't you heard of it before from someone else?

MK: [Jpn.] No, no, no, nothing.

TY: [Jpn.] Did they take anything with them?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah, a pistol. Maybe a Japanese sword, I don't know. They took anything they considered dangerous. During the investigation.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh, did you have those kinds of things?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. If you had any of those, they would remove them.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Anything else?

<End Segment 44> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 45>

MK: [Jpn.] Oh, after the war started and before we left for camp, we left with our neighbor... what did my husband leave with them at that time? We don't know. He left something with the neighbor. He left with them something we couldn't take to the camp.

TY:[Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] But there was nothing when we returned. They used everything they could use. Because we weren't coming back. We locked the house after putting all the things in one room. We locked the house, but...

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] The people we asked to look after our house opened our house and used everything.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Was that your neighbor?

MK: [Jpn.] The people who moved in later...

TY: [Jpn.] Oh, I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Uh-huh, yeah. We bought a new machine. We installed a brand new washing machine. But if you use it for four years, the new one is not new anymore. See? Nothing is new.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah. Oh, you had that kind of thing.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. We did. Also a car.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] A car we just bought. We trusted our neighbor who was very kind to us. Because we couldn't take it with us, we left this new car with him. With our neighbor. I was told later that he used the car for hunting and other things. He used that car as if it were his. But we couldn't complain. Because we were the ones who left it with him.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] Those were our experiences. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Well, besides those stories, do you remember any discriminatory incidents against you personally?

MK: [Jpn.] What?

TY: [Jpn.] Well, did you have any other uncomfortable experiences?

MK: [Jpn.] You mean after we returned?

TY: [Jpn.] No, before the war.

MK: [Jpn.] Before the war.

TY: [Jpn.] No, right after the war started. Before you went to the camp.

MK: [Jpn.] Oh, I see. But once the war started, we didn't go out very much.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Nothing in particular. We couldn't even visit our neighbors any more. Because of that thing with the Caucasians.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] That's not a wise thing to do.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. So we just stayed home and didn't go visit the Caucasian neighbors.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

<End Segment 45> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 46>

TY: [Jpn.] By the way, was Hideo... was he at the Arakis?

MK: [Jpn.] At the Arakis.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes, he was there, but he was supposed to be at the Kurosus according to the papers when he entered the U.S...

MK: [Jpn.] Huh?

TY: [Jpn.] He ended up going to Pinedale with the Kurosus, didn't he?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. That's right.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] And so, if he had remained in Japan...

MK: [Jpn.] He didn't have a chance to come to the U.S. Because the war started. If he had remained in Japan. Uh-huh. Because he was in the U.S., we could see each other. But I feel really sorry for Hideo. He had to stay in a place he hated for four long years. It must have been difficult for him.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] He missed his Mom. He wanted to go back to his Mom.

TY: [Jpn.] By the way, what did Hideo say? How did he react when the war started?

MK: [Jpn.] Huh?

TY: [Jpn.] Hideo.

MK: [Jpn.] Hideo?

TY: [Jpn.] Yes, when he heard about Pearl Harbor.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh, uh...

TY: [Jpn.] What kind of things did he say?

MK: [Jpn.] He didn't say very much.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh.

MK: [Jpn.] Shocked. I guess he was shocked.

TY: [Jpn.] Probably so.

MK: [Jpn.] The biggest problem was that he wouldn't be able to go home.

TY: [Jpn.] Because his family and friends were all in Japan.

MK: [Jpn.] Yes, exactly.

TY: [Jpn.] That must have worried him.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Well, when that incident, when Pearl Harbor was bombed, Lilly was nine years old and Roy was eight years old...

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes. In addition, you had other younger children.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Donald, the youngest child, was two years old...

MK: [Eng.] Huh?

TY: [Jpn.] He was only two years old, wasn't he? Donald was only two.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah --

TY: [Jpn.] Only a baby. Then you had to go to Sunny -- no, Pinedale.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] How did you find that out?

MK: [Jpn.] Well, you get a notice.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] So we follow the order. We do. Even if you don't know anything about it.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] That's government business and we follow the government order.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] But were you surprised when you received the notice? Or were you mentally prepared to receive it?

MK: [Jpn.] No, of course, we were surprised.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. Nobody expected that.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. Nobody imagined anything like Pearl Harbor could ever happen.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] So, of course, we were shocked.

TY: [Jpn.] Were you also shocked at the notice which forced you to move to camp?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] But, were you mentally prepared to go?

MK: [Jpn.] Well, you could at least buy food since then.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] But you couldn't do anything else at all once it began.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] So you learned that you were going to Pinedale. You said you received such a notice.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Then how did you prepare for the move? I understand that the notice gave restrictions as to the luggage.

MK: [Jpn.] No. We got rid of everything we didn't need.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Also, we cleaned the inside of the house as much as we could. We moved everything into one room of the house and locked it.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] And then as much as possible... I told you before that we left our car with our neighbor.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes, you did.

MK: [Jpn.] So there wasn't anything more. You can't take the land with you.

<End Segment 46> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 47>

TY: [Jpn.] Well, then, what did you do with the greenhouse?

MK: [Jpn.] We just left it there. We left it there and then when we returned, we heard that the greenhouse was used as a chicken coop.

TY: [Jpn.] Your neighbor?

MK: [Jpn.] Chickens.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Chickens. They kept chickens in the greenhouse. We heard it later.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] You told us before that you imported tulip bulbs from Holland.

MK: [Jpn.] Those have to be... every year...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] They have to be dug up and replanted every year, or they would be damaged. If you left them there for four years, they were ruined.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] They were totally ruined. That means they will grow smaller and smaller.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] It's a major effort to make them bigger again.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] So we gave up on them.

TY: [Jpn.] You gave up completely.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. We just gave up. So we focused on the greenhouse business. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] By the way, you said earlier that you rented the house to somebody.

MK: [Jpn.] What?

TY: [Jpn.] To somebody. Did somebody live in your house while you were away? While you were forced to live in Pinedale?

MK: [Jpn.] Yes.

TY: [Jpn.] Did somebody live in your house as a house-sitter?

MK: [Jpn.] Oh yeah. The house-sitter...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] I asked another friend.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] But he liked drinking.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Because he liked drinking, everything in our house... as you know, we were growing bulbs.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh, yes, bulbs.

MK: [Jpn.] Bulbs.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] We were growing the bulbs.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] So we still had a lot of manure and fertilizer piled up in the barn.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] I heard that he sold all of that and spent it for drinking. Everything.

TY: [Jpn.] You trusted him, didn't you?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. He loved drinking. So we heard. So nothing was left there. Nothing. But that's a small matter.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] It doesn't matter.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

<End Segment 47> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 48>

TY: [Jpn.] By the way, there was a limit as to how much you could take with you.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] You had four small children and the oldest was only nine or ten. Weren't you worried about the luggage? Did you worry whether you could pack everything you needed for your children in the limited space?

MK: [Jpn.] You mean, when we returned?

TY: [Jpn.] No, when you went to Pinedale.

MK: [Jpn.] When we went to Pinedale?

TY: [Jpn.] Yes. Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Well, we couldn't take much with us.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] But someone took a sewing machine, I heard.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. So I think the government took care of some belongings.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] You had to pack the luggage without knowing where you were going, or if the place was hot or cold, didn't you?

MK: [Jpn.] That's right. You took a chance.

TY: [Jpn.] You are right.

MK: [Jpn.] We didn't know. But even if you knew it would be that hot, then what could you do? We couldn't stay. We had no choice but to go. So the train we rode wasn't very nice. Of course, why should they give us a nice train? We were foreign enemies.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. We were guarded by the military police. For each one.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. But none of us would escape. I think that maybe people who don't like Japanese might come and attack us. It could be both ways. If the Caucasians find out that the Japanese are passing through, they might do something awful. So we had to close our windows. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah. So you boarded the train without knowing where you were going...

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. That's right.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes. Then, did your children ask questions, such as, "Why do we have to go?"

MK: [Jpn.] No, no, no, none of them ask such questions.

TY: [Jpn.] They just obeyed you?

MK: [Jpn.] Besides that's a complicated issue, isn't it?

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] That's a difficult issue between Japan and the U.S. So when they got older and understood the issue, they naturally asked questions. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] So, the children just followed your order?

MK: [Jpn.] Yes. Of course.

TY: [Jpn.] By the way, the Arakis... it was May 10th in 1942 that you were taken to Pinedale...

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] So your family, you, your husband, your four children and Hideo, a total of seven moved into the Pinedale Assembly Center.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah, that's right.

TY: [Jpn.] But the Arakis...

MK: [Jpn.] Separate.

TY: [Jpn.] Separate.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. I wanted to go to Minidoka, too, but...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] But we couldn't, and we were taken to Pinedale. So we were separated.

TY: [Jpn.] So you wanted to go with the Arakis, didn't you?

MK: [Jpn.] But Mr. Araki told me that he thought I would also come there and so he was waiting for me.

TY: [Jpn.] Then you had contact with him.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. But I couldn't write that we were going to Pinedale, no, it was not Pinedale, we were going to Wyoming. I never could write that.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Then the contact...

MK: [Jpn.] Mini... yeah. I wanted to go where the Arakis were. He was waiting for me. Yeah. Instead we ended up in a strange place. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Then, the Arakis were already in Minidoka.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] You already had contact with him, didn't you?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

<End Segment 48> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 49>

MK: [Jpn.] Then one more thing.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] If we had been a little later, we would have lost our land.

TY: [Jpn.] What do you mean?

MK: [Jpn.] It's because you have to pay every year that thing.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Well...

TY: [Jpn.] Tax?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah, tax.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] If you own land, you have to pay taxes. What will happen if you don't pay taxes for four years? But they must have thought about that.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] That's why they waited for four years.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] After the four years passed, they advertised in a newspaper right away. Our land.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] They put it for sale.

TY: [Jpn.] Who?

MK: [Jpn.] The government.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] We barely made it because we returned right away.

TY: [Jpn.] I see. Then, if you had returned a little later...

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] You would have lost your land.

MK: [Jpn.] Even so, you couldn't complain because of the war. The war was on.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Uh-huh. You couldn't complain at all. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Then, what happened to the Arakis' house?

MK: [Jpn.] Oh, it was there.

TY: [Jpn.] Somebody...

MK: [Jpn.] But I hear that they had somebody to take care of it.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] The greenhouse.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Then their greenhouse was taken care of without interruption.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. So they didn't have any problems. It went smoothly, I think.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Uh.

<End Segment 49> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 50>

TY: [Jpn.] Speaking of the day you left for Pinedale, May 10th, what were you feeling when you left your home behind?

MK: [Jpn.] Night?

TY: [Jpn.] You left for Pinedale, didn't you?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] What did you think when you left your town?

MK: [Jpn.] Well, what did I think? What can you think?

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] We were taken to a desert-like area and then put into a barrack. You can't think under such conditions. Yeah. You cannot think any good thoughts.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] When you are in a camp like that, everybody is the same. Just like a soldier. But even the soldiers would not live so strictly. But ru... ru... what do you say? Oh, rules.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] You have to obey rules. Because it was run by the military.

TY: [Jpn.] Well, then...

MK: [Jpn.] Therefore...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] So we were all... what do you call? That thing to keep everybody in, to prevent an escape.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] So the military guards were watching us at all times.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] You were surrounded by barbed wire.

MK: [Jpn.] Without permission, you cannot go out or come in. Yeah. Because we were "foreign enemies."

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Uh-huh. I can understand that, why they did it.

TY: [Jpn.] I see. By the way, I hear that Pinedale was very hot.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] What was it like?

MK: [Jpn.] It was bad and I wondered, if this were to go on, what I would do. Because there was nothing to do.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. Even if you had nothing to do, still it would be better if we could find a cool place. But they were newly built barracks and there was not a single tree there.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] There was nothing but the rows of barracks. It was so hot. I will never forget that heat.

TY: [Jpn.] I heard that you put a wet towel on your head...

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah, that's right.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah, but it soon gets hot again.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] So that wasn't such a good idea.

TY: [Jpn.] Was it that hot?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah, it was really hot.

TY: [Jpn.] I understand that some children were dehydrated...

MK: [Jpn.] But the children...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] They had schools.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh, were there schools in Pinedale?

MK: [Jpn.] Yes, we had schools.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] There were schools.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. It's compulsory education also in the U.S.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Well, Americans... no, they were not Americans any longer. They became foreigners. But the war is a military business. It has nothing to do with the children. So there were schools, including a high school. Everything.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. So we didn't have to worry about that.

TY: [Jpn.] Didn't you worry about your children's health, living in such a hot place?

MK: [Jpn.] No, because there was a hospital.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Because it was run by the army, it was run efficiently. If anybody gets sick, that person will be hospitalized right away.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] If that doesn't work, you visit a doctor.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] You can go to see a doctor. So there was nothing to worry.

TY: [Jpn.] I see. By the way, what kind of room did you get at Pinedale?

MK: [Jpn.] Not much.

TY: [Jpn.] Did you all stay in one room?

MK: [Eng.] Huh?

TY: [Jpn.] I am talking about the room assignment at Pinedale. A room in a barrack.

MK: [Jpn.] Yes, that's right.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] So I was seventy-three. We were number seventy-three of the block. I showed it to you before.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh, that one.

MK: [Jpn.] On that, seventy-three...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] ...was written everywhere. It was written everywhere.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] Seventy-three.

TY: [Jpn.] It was at Heart Mountain, wasn't it?

MK: [Jpn.] Yes, no. That was at Tule Lake. It was Tule Lake. It was not Heart Mountain. It was the number at Tule Lake.

TY: [Jpn.] Then, you had a family of six and Hideo at Pinedale. Did Hideo live in the same room?

MK: [Jpn.] No. No. He was totally separate from us. He was in bachelor's quarters. We called it "Alaska." It was in the camp. There was a big ditch over there.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] So, then, that divides us between here and there. We called "Alaska" the other side of the ditch. The Japanese people in the camp called it "Alaska." So everyone knows what "Alaska" means.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. So Hideo was in "Alaska."

TY: [Jpn.] He was in the singles quarter.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] I understand.

MK: [Jpn.] So he was with other single people.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Also he worked in the kitchen at that time...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] And he was burned by hot water either on his hand or leg. He got boiling water on his body.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. So he was with us for a while. For a short while. Yeah.

<End Segment 50> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 51>

TY: [Jpn.] Then it was three months, no, two months later, in July 1942, to Tule Lake...

MK: [Jpn.] Yes.

TY: [Jpn.] You moved.

MK: [Jpn.] Yes.

TY: [Jpn.] Right. Then you received another notice.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. That's right. We moved into Seventy-three at Tule Lake.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Then what made the strongest impression on you when you arrived in Tule Lake?

MK: [Jpn.] Let me think. "Gan" How do you say "gan"? A bird.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh, yes. "Gan," a bird. Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] We say "gan" in Japanese, but here...

TY: [Jpn.] What would that be? What do you call that in English?

MK: [Jpn.] Well, what do you call that?

AI: [Eng.] Watchtower.

TY: [Eng.] It's a bird.

AI: [Eng.] Oh... seagull?

MK: [Jpn.] Well, you know, those flying in formation every day. Those birds which fly in formation. What is that bird?

TY: [Jpn.] Could it be a goose? It's like a goose?

MK: [Jpn.] Oh, gosh. I can't remember.

AI: [Eng.] Duck.

TY: [Eng.] Duck? No.

MK: [Jpn.] That one. What do you call that?

TY: [Jpn.] It is also called "kari," isn't it?

MK: [Jpn.] "Kari"?

TY: [Jpn.] "Kari" is also a Japanese word.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah, it's a "kari."

TY: [Jpn.] It's a "kari."

MK: [Jpn.] Oh, those were "karis." Yeah. They fly there often.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. That must be their route. They must have a route there. They fly over there very often.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

<End Segment 51> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 52>

MK: [Jpn.] I think that the area was a beach long time ago. That Tule Lake was.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh.

MK: [Jpn.] We call it Tule Lake. So it has the word "lake", doesn't it?

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] So the reason why there were so many sea shells...

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Those were all dried up things. So if you want sea shells, you can find as many as you want. A lot of small sea shells. If you dig a little, you can find lots of them in the sand. So some people with skills made hair accessories from them. Also...

TY: [Jpn.] Brooch?

MK: [Jpn.] Made some ornaments to put right here. They made many kinds of things. There was an exhibit once or twice a year to show off what you created. People displayed what they made. Just like here.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] So we all went to see that.

TY: [Jpn.] I hear that people created many handcraft items during the stay in camps.

MK: [Jpn.] What?

TY: [Jpn.] Many people created handcrafted and woodwork pieces...

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Woodwork, too.

MK: [Jpn.] They did that.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes. Anything else?

MK: [Jpn.] You can do it if you are interested in it.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Uh-huh. But I was no good at sewing.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh.

MK: [Jpn.] So I went to a sewing class. Then I made an overcoat for my second child, Betty.

TY: [Jpn.] Then you left your job and...

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Such a class...

MK: [Jpn.] Yes. That's right.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh.

MK: [Jpn.] So whatever you like...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] If you love flower arrangements, you become a flower arrangement teacher. There were many Japanese. All the Japanese were there. So there were people with many talents. There were a plenty of teachers.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] So you can learn from them. Many different things. So if you want to learn something, you just go to see that person and you could learn anything. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Then in your case, it was the first time that you found the time.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. That's right.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] That's true.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. That was a nice place. We didn't have to think much.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] We didn't have to do anything but play.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Even with the child care, our youngest child, was that Donald?

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] He just goes out to play on his own and so I went to a sewing class and enjoyed it.

TY: [Jpn.] Then isn't it the first time for your children also to be surrounded by so many Japanese people?

MK: [Jpn.] That's right. Uh-huh. Oh, was that twenty thousand people? The population, the population of that place was twenty thousand, I think. Wasn't it twenty thousand?

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] There were twenty thousand people. It was a big city.

TY: [Jpn.] Indeed.

MK: [Jpn.] See? That's why we also had "Alaska"...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] We were divided into two.

TY: [Jpn.] Didn't Hideo go to Tule Lake?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. And he was in Alaska. As I said before, there was a big ditch. The area beyond the ditch is "Alaska." Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] He made some friends.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. That's right.

<End Segment 52> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 53>

TY: [Jpn.] Yes. By the way, did your husband have a job in the camp?

MK: [Jpn.] Well, he worked in the kitchen.

TY: [Jpn.] Your husband worked in the kitchen.

MK: [Jpn.] He was a cook.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] He was a cook. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] In the mess hall.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. He was a cook. He became the chief cook, but the salary was shamefully small.

TY: [Jpn.] Do you remember how much it was?

MK: [Jpn.] Well, how much was it? At that time. Was it 13 dollars?

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] A month?

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Either 13 dollars or 15 dollars. Something like that. I didn't receive it. But the food was all free.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. Yeah.

TY: [Eng.] What kind of food did you eat?

MK: [Jpn.] Huh?

TY: [Jpn.] What kind of food did you eat?

MK: [Jpn.] Oh, all kinds of foods. But nothing expensive. Well, camp food, camp... no, the type of food the soldiers eat... maybe not that bad.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] But there were very few dishes I thought were really delicious. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah. The food you couldn't eat...

MK: [Jpn.] That was...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes?

MK: [Jpn.] Well, this is different. There were Caucasians above the Japanese people. Always.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] So what the Caucasians plan is what they think.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] This is not military. Not inside military. We are not soldiers. So I think they planned that. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Do you mean the menu?

MK: [Jpn.] Yes. I don't know for sure, but that's my guess.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Were there any foods you could not eat?

MK: [Jpn.] Well, but if you don't eat there, you have to go home and buy food on your own while you are in the camp.

<End Segment 53> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 54>

TY: [Jpn.] Well, let me see. At that time in 1942, Lilly was eleven and Roy was ten. Betty was seven and Donald was three. How did you take care of your children? You had children of different ages...

MK: [Jpn.] Taking care of my children?

TY: [Jpn.] Yes, child care. Since you didn't have a job, you could take care of your children at all times.

MK: [Jpn.] Well, the child care is just taking care of their clothes. The government fed them and so I didn't have to worry about it.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Only what they wear.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Clothes and one more problem at Tule Lake. We had five boys. No, four boys. No. Three.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Three boys.

TY: [Jpn.] Two of those...

MK: [Jpn.] Oh, Donald. Roy and Donald and Bobby and Paul. There were four. There were four. There were four at that time.

TY: [Jpn.] Well, at Tule Lake you had Roy and Donald. Only two.

MK: [Jpn.] No, Roy. No, Roy was at Tule Lake. Roy was there only for two. Roy joined the army. He joined the army and he wasn't there.

TY: [Jpn.] Roy...

MK: [Jpn.] As I remember, those Japanese who didn't join the Army didn't pass.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. Then Roy... Roy was there.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. Roy also...

TY: [Jpn.] He was ten years old.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. We had up to Donald. Didn't I tell you that Donald was mischievous and gave me a lot of trouble?

TY: [Jpn.] Yes, you did.

MK: [Jpn.] I told you it was difficult for me to go to neighbors all the time to apologize.

TY: [Jpn.] Will you tell us more about that?

MK: [Jpn.] Well, because Donald was, what can I say, didn't like to lose. So if somebody said something he didn't like, he would punch him. That was a real problem for me.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] So you had to go see the boy's parent and apologize...

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah, that's right.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] That's right. All the time. Besides, you are supposed to take some gifts with you.

TY: [Jpn.] Then...

MK: [Jpn.] But what Donald says sometimes makes sense.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] But when the other parents demand (an apology), you cannot remain silent. Fighting is not allowed.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. So sometimes I know it was the other party who was at fault, but when the other party's parents blame Donald, I have to accept that. Because fighting is not acceptable. You know. It is easier not to argue and just apologize.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] That's how I respond.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Uh-huh. Yeah. Every time...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Parents cannot quarrel. Parents should not quarrel about kids' fighting.

TY: [Jpn.] Particularly when you are all living in the same area.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. That's right. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] That will be a problem.

MK: [Jpn.] That's why it is better and quicker to give in.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah. By the way, Hideo was living in "Alaska" where the singles live...

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. That's right.

<End Segment 54> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 55>

TY: [Jpn.] Then, did your family of six live in one room?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. We all lived in the same room. In one room.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Oh, no, we got two rooms there. We had two rooms at Tule Lake.

TY: [Jpn.] Did you have two rooms?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. They gave us two rooms.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] Because we were a large family.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] They gave us two rooms.

TY: [Jpn.] Were the rooms connected inside?

MK: [Jpn.] Since it was a barrack, it is just a long, long house. It goes all the way back. You just get different numbers. Uh-huh. So, in the beginning, we had small children and the next door neighbor also had small children...

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] And the ceiling... the barracks don't have ceilings.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] They just built outer structures.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] So, we had partitions.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] We all had partitions. We were put into a building with nothing but partitions at Tule Lake. So children throw something to a neighbor's child while playing and the other child throws it back. But we were better off because we had two rooms.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] You are not watching everything.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] That's between children. They did such things.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. I heard it only much later. If somebody needed something, the neighbor children throw things over (the partition). They threw things back and forth. I was told later. I think it's a great thing for children to do.

TY: [Jpn.] The whole house was a play house for them, wasn't it?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. For the children it was a good house... a great camp.

TY: [Jpn.] By the way, what kind of things were there in your rooms?

MK: [Jpn.] Well, what do you call that...

TY: [Jpn.] Huh.

MK: [Jpn.] A tall thing made of iron and you put coal. Coal.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh, yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Coal, but you could use wood, but we all used coal. Every morning we went to get coal. We had to bring it to our room.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. And it had a flat area on top. It was flat on top.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] When you burn coal, the top gets really hot. You can use it for anything. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] What did you do with it?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah, it was so convenient.

TY: [Jpn.] I see. What...

MK: [Jpn.] Because we don't have a kitchen.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] We used it as a kitchen.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] You could do anything with it.

TY: [Jpn.] What kind of things did you cook?

MK: [Jpn.] What?

TY: [Jpn.] What did you cook?

MK: [Jpn.] Well, but we didn't cook very much.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Because we were fed breakfast, lunch and dinner.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Besides if I want to cook, I have to cook for more than two or three people.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Therefore I couldn't. Yeah. But probably someone who liked cooking must have cooked lots of things. Although I haven't heard of it personally.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] They must have cooked something. Electricity was available. If you brought electric appliances, you might have been able to cook, but I am not sure. If you bring an extra appliance...

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] But I wonder if we had that strong electricity there.

TY: [Jpn.] Huh.

MK: [Jpn.] Did electricity come... was there electricity strong enough to cook? I don't think there was. Because the military fed us and there was no reason for them to provide us for cooking. There was no need. If you think about it, it is obvious.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] See? When they provide us with three meals, there was no need for them to do such a thing.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] See?

<End Segment 55> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 56>

TY: [Jpn.] By the way, how was the climate at Tule Lake? Pinedale was very hot.

MK: [Jpn.] The climate at Tule Lake was much better.

TY: [Jpn.] Is that right?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. Pinedale was something. That was. Uh-huh. I think that Tule Lake is a nice place.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh, really?

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] By the way, I heard that there was a scorpion...

MK: [Jpn.] And also...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Water...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] We were all supplied with water, but if you want special water, you go way over there, Shosho... Shosho Bay or... Shosho... Shosho something... the children know that kind of place very well. The children play and go everywhere. Some people went there to get water, carrying a one-gallon thing. They drank water from there...

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. If I may say so, the water did not taste good.

TY: [Jpn.] Do you mean the water at Tule Lake?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. The drinking water wasn't that bad. But we got water on our own. What kind of water did we drink at that time? The water must have been good enough.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] We can use water, but the water wasn't very clean. Of course even if it was not clean water, the camp was run by the military and the military wouldn't supply undrinkable water. Yeah. Of course, the laundry room was an exception. There it is not good when you add soap.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] It doesn't lather at all. So when you wash your hair, as I told you before, the hair stays really flat. It looks like it was glued on.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] So softener. We used water softener. We used water softener. Yeah. Then you use water softener, and then wash...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] You know, we used that to do laundry. Uh-huh. Yeah. Those were the days.

TY: [Jpn.] I see. And I hear there was also a scorpion...

MK: [Jpn.] And then...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] This is, this is really a funny story. When we started living there...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] This is a story about the lavatory. There was a huge hole below you. A big one. Then a two-by-four was placed between that side and this side. As you know, you lower your hips. [Laughs] It was like that at first when we entered the camp.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] At Tule Lake?

MK: [Jpn.] They didn't have time to do that. They built it in a hurry. That's why it was like that. It was the very first time for us to use such a thing.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] The first time. But later they built the proper facilities. Because they didn't have time, we had to use such facilities. It was a two-by-four. If you are not careful, you will fall down into it. [Laughs]

TY: [Jpn.] I hope nobody fell off?

MK: [Eng.] Huh?

TY: [Jpn.] Nobody fell off, I hope.

MK: [Jpn.] Into the hole?

TY: [Jpn.] Did anybody fall into the hole?

MK: [Jpn.] No, no.

TY: [Jpn.] Nobody did.

MK: [Jpn.] Of course, we were very careful.

TY: [Jpn.] Didn't you worry about small children?

MK: [Jpn.] No. The small children didn't use it. So we must have had something else, a smaller one. Only the adults used it.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Uh-huh. And some mischievous kids, you know, there is paper...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] A lot of it. Yeah. I heard some kids stuffed toilets with paper for fun. Some kids might have done so, but there were not many of them.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

<End Segment 56> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 57>

TY: [Jpn.] And I heard that you had to line up, there was a line for everything.

MK: [Jpn.] That's right. A line. It was "first come first serve."

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. So if you want to go early or enter early, you go early and wait. But it was not easy to stand in line in the heat. Besides, it was not that they wouldn't feed you if you were late.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] They will feed you no matter what. The only difference is that it will be a little later.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] So you just figure out if you leave at this time, then it will be this, and then decide to leave. So it was simple. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] But everybody ate in the mess hall at the same time...

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] But then, how about the children's manners?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah, but...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] The other thing is that those with babies...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] They go get the baby food. See? They took good care of us.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Uh-huh. They gave us special baby foods.

TY: [Jpn.] I see. So when you went to eat, you took your children with you...

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. We took them with us.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Well, there was a big bench for us to sit together.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] There was a bench. It was not a two-by-four, but maybe ten-by-something. There was a chair of the same length as the table. You sit wherever you like. At both sides of a table. So you can sit wherever you want. Uh-huh. Yeah. You can eat wherever you want.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. The only difference was whether you were close or far from the mess hall.

TY: [Jpn.] Was seventy-three close?

MK: [Jpn.] No. The children go wherever a table is.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] They don't think that way.

<End Segment 57> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 58>

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah. Then, your husband and Hideo both worked at the mess hall...

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] And you took some classes...

MK: [Jpn.] I didn't have to do anything.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] But I, I had a child, Donald.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] I couldn't leave him alone sometimes. I had to go home early to take care of him. If nobody was home when he wanted to go home, he couldn't go home. Since I knew what time it was.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] I would go back right away.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] What kind of things did you make or do in your craft class?

MK: [Jpn.] At the beginning, you have to draw a chart. Do this way and that, and you add this way. Also you learn what tools you need when you start. You had to buy those on your own. They didn't supply us with those.

TY: [Jpn.] I see. Did those with sewing skills teach that type of things?

MK: [Jpn.] And the sewing machines...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] The government supplied us. They set them up so that we could use them.

TY: [Jpn.] I see. And it was the first time for you to learn, wasn't it?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. That's right. It was the first time. I learned it for the first time in my life.

TY: [Jpn.] By the way, is this...

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Oh, this is...

TY: [Jpn.] This is...

MK: [Jpn.] Well...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] There must be "seventy-three" somewhere. Se-oh, Seventy-three. [shows shirt collar]

TY: [Jpn.] Yes. That was your barrack number...

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah, my barrack number.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah. And this photo...

MK: [Jpn.] And...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Lake. Well, what did we write at that time? Hmm?

TY: [Jpn.] Oh, it's written here.

MK: [Jpn.] Lake... what is this? Lake what? This...

TY: [Jpn.] It's "Tule Lake."

MK: [Jpn.] It's "Tu" of Tule Lake. Tule. And "Lake" is... we wrote "Lake" here...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] So it's written "Tule Lake."

TY: [Jpn.] And Barrack 73.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. That's right. It looks like that.

TY: [Jpn.] And are these signatures all done by those living in Seventy-three?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. Everybody. The numbers... those living in seventy-three. And also, my husband worked in the kitchen and so some were from those.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] So those who worked there. There were people who worked there. So we got their signatures first.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] We all went around to get signatures. These.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] And after we got signatures, I thought I should make a shirt out of this. So I went to the camp...

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] And I bought this material...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] And right away I made it.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] So this is my husband's size.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh.

MK: [Jpn.] This is the size he can wear.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] And then I thought... I had to buy a colored thread. So I returned to the camp and bought the thread. But then I needed buttons.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] And so I bought buttons there. Therefore all of these are from the camp. All of them.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah. Then those who worked in the kitchen and those who lived in Seventy-three...

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. We needed from the people who lived in the camp... I mean, barrack. If we didn't, we didn't have enough.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Uh-huh. And everybody was happy to do it for us.

TY: [Jpn.] I can see that. And the picture... there is a picture on the pocket. About the picture...

MK: [Jpn.] Oh, the pocket. This is, oh, Abalone Mountain.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] It's called Abalone Mountain because it looks like an abalone. So this one is Abalone Mountain.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] This one is the barrack at Heart Mountain.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] This is the barrack. This is a mountain at Heart Mountain. This is the barrack where we lived. And this is what, a soldier... what is this?

TY: [Jpn.] It's a watchtower.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah... shoe... shee... sheehoe... what is it written?

TY: [Jpn.] It's written "Suiho."

MK: [Jpn.] It must be "Shuho."

TY: [Jpn.] "Suiho".

MK: [Jpn.] What does it mean, "Shuho"?

TY: [Jpn.] I wonder if it is somebody's name.

MK: [Jpn.] "Shuho"? Why is "Shuho" written here? I don't understand.

TY: [Jpn.] And the mountain was at Tule Lake?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. It's at Tule Lake. These are all at Tule Lake.

TY: [Jpn.] Was it Castle Rock?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. These are all at Tule Lake.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] And the one we made the other day, those were all done at Tule Lake.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] I didn't do anything at Heart Mountain.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] And so, this is done, isn't it?

TY: [Jpn.] Yes, that's right. Thank you very much. But this picture... a stamp is on the picture. There is an embroidery of a stamp. Did you have somebody draw that picture on the pocket?

MK: [Jpn.] That's not a real stamp, is it?

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah. It's an embroidery of a stamp.

MK: [Jpn.] It's a copy of a stamp.

TY: [Jpn.] Did you draw this picture yourself? The picture on the pocket?

MK: [Jpn.] Oh, yeah. That. By looking at a picture.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Well, there were many painters there.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] So I copied that. No, rather, I looked at it.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] I drew it in a smaller scale.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh, that's how you did it.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh, yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Then those wild geese you talked about earlier, those groups of wild geese...

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. That's right.

TY: [Jpn.] They are drawn here.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah, wild geese. Yeah. They flew over us often. They made noises, "kah kah kah". They flew in formation. It was a beautiful sight. Since there wasn't much to admire there, that's about the only thing we could enjoy looking at.

[Interruption]

<End Segment 58> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 59>

TY: [Jpn.] Now, would you please talk about this? [hands a bag to MK]

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. Oh, this is also...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] What do you call this? What kind of tree of California is this?

TY: [Jpn.] It was a Redwood.

MK: [Jpn.] What?

TY: [Jpn.] It was a Redwood.

MK: [Jpn.] What kind of tree was this? If somebody tells me, I will recognize it. Can't think of an English word. What was this tree? It was a light-weight tree.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Everybody, people in the camp made a lot of things from this wood. Small pieces of furniture and such. And then, when you know, they want some writing, picture, then make it big, flat... a flat one. Then they drew a picture on it.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] And then you paint shellac this way. It covers it.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] With it, we made beautiful things. In those days. They painted beautiful pictures.

TY: [Jpn.] There were really talented people there.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. And also, um, I heard that people made various things.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] We had unlimited time on hand. And some of us were carpenters.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] So they can make anything. There were so many different people, and so we could do anything. It was a big camp. There was nothing we couldn't do. We could do anything within our group.

TY: [Jpn.] And do you remember this? Your embroidery...

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Didn't you make this part of the bag?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. I made this, but...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] But my husband made this.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] So in this way. Well, I was at seventy-three, seventy-eight. The very end. The first spot. Uh-huh. And this is my husband, Roy.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Roy. "N" is Naoe.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Kurosu. See?

TY: [Jpn.] And Misses, right?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. Naoe Kurosu. Uh-huh. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] How did you pick this design?

MK: [Jpn.] No. I was told to use this design.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh, is that right?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] And it was used in your class.

MK: [Jpn.] So I followed it. Uh-huh. But if I am told to embroider this now, I wouldn't know where to start. I really won't know.

TY: [Jpn.] I see. So you were making these types of things often.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. Many people were making various things.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. We tried various things. Some of us made pins.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Masamune Sado. Oh, Masami. Masami Sado is the person who lived next door to us.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] I mean, of the barrack.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. She was... what was it? That "gan," what was it?

TY: [Jpn.] You mean geese. Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Yes, geese. That's right. Geese. She made a lot of pins of geese and other birds.

TY: [Jpn.] Using sea shells?

MK: [Jpn.] And she painted them beautifully.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] And she sold them at Penny's.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh.

MK: [Jpn.] She was quite good. She even added legs.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] She added legs. And the birds perched on trees. I should have one somewhere.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Shall I bring it?

Lilian, MK's daughter: [To Marian] [Eng.] You don't know where it's at, Mom.

MK: [To daughter] [Jpn.] No. It's somewhere. I have it somewhere.

Lilian: [Eng.] Mom, did you say it was Fred Sado's?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. Yeah. Fre...

Lorraine, MK's granddaughter: [Eng.] Or was it Masami?

MK: [Jpn.] Masami Sado.

Lorraine: [Eng.] Oh, Sado.

MK: [Jpn.] Her name was Masami Sado. She made many beautiful things. She lived next door and made those diligently. And she is quite good. Her painting from this wing to this body was particularly good. She was good at expressing characteristics of each bird. They were beautiful. She also had birds perch on a tree. She made them just so perfectly.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Uh-huh. With metal...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Using wire...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] And she brings a branch this way and catches the wire. And she puts (the bird) just there.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] So I have one. If I had known, I would have shown it to you. I could have looked for it earlier. I have it somewhere. It's worth seeing. It's beautiful.

TY: [Jpn.] Then you can show me later, when you find it?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. It's beautiful. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Masami is still alive.

TY: [Jpn.] Is that right?

MK: [Jpn.] Uh-huh. I remember seeing her somewhere.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] So you found time to spend with other people in the camp.

MK: [Jpn.] Yes. That's right. But many people passed away.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes, that's true.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. They passed away.

TY: [Jpn.] It's been a long time.

MK: [Jpn.] Even some young people passed away.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Uh-huh. Yeah. That's the story. [hands the bag back]

<End Segment 59> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 60>

TY: [Jpn.] Yes. By the way, I heard that there were various meetings at the camp. Did you participate in them?

MK: [Jpn.] No. I did not go to any of those.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] The young people...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] They got together and held meetings.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Old people like me were better off not to attend.

TY: [Jpn.] But how about your husband?

MK: [Jpn.] What?

TY: [Jpn.] Your husband? Your husband also...

MK: [Jpn.] This is a Japanese camp, you know.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] But there were not many black people then. Well, in Seattle I hardly saw black people.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Not much.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh, excuse me. I meant your husband (goshujin) and not black people (kokujin). Did your husband attend the meetings?

MK: [Jpn.] Oh, did you say kokujin (black people)?

TY: [Jpn.] I am sorry.

MK: [Jpn.] Kokujin... Kokujin [Laughs]

TY: [Jpn.] I meant "goshujin."

MK: [Jpn.] Oh, my husband. My husband?

TY: [Jpn.] Did he attend those meetings?

MK: [Jpn.] No. He hardly went there. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Then how about Hideo?

MK: [Jpn.] I don't know much about Hideo because he is over there. He is in "Alaska."

TY: [Jpn.] Then he...

MK: [Jpn.] The other side had its own...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] I thought he was getting along well with others.

TY: [Jpn.] Was that singles quarter far away?

MK: [Jpn.] No. We were at one end and he was at the other end. The Seventy-three was the one end. "Alaska" was at the end, too. So you had to walk quite a while to reach the end.

TY: [Jpn.] So it's only while you were in the mess hall that you saw him once in a while?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah, because he was also pretty busy, we rarely saw each other while we stayed there.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] He was doing whatever he wanted to do.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

<End Segment 60> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 61>

TY: [Jpn.] And by the way, the government sent you a questionnaire for which you had to answer "yes-yes" or "no-no."

MK: [Jpn.] That...

TY: [Jpn.] Whether you swear loyalty to the U.S. or not.

MK: [Jpn.] Loyalty to the U.S.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes. Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. Everybody was loyal to the U.S.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Right.

TY: [Jpn.] So in your family, your husband and you had to fill in the form, didn't you?

MK: [Jpn.] At that time?

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] So both of you...

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. Of course.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes, yes.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, yeah, that's right. Uh-huh. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Did you hesitate or decide right away?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. But there was nothing to hesitate about. I...

TY: [Jpn.] Why did you answer "yes-yes"?

MK: [Jpn.] What?

TY: [Jpn.] Why did you choose "yes-yes" as an answer?

MK: [Jpn.] It's because it was, yes. That's why we said "yes-yes".

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] It's just because... that's why we said, "Yes."

TY: [Jpn.] Loyal to the U.S...

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. That's right. Of course.

TY: [Jpn.] Was it because you planned to stay?

MK: [Jpn.] First of all, we had many children. They were all born in the U.S.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes. Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Then you have no problem. You know.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. Of course, the U.S.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Then how about Hideo?

[Interruption]

MK: [Jpn.] Uh-huh. We asked him to return here even just for a short while, but he wouldn't listen. No matter what we said...

TY: [Jpn.] Because he grew up in Japan.

MK: [Jpn.] He wanted to go back no matter what. Yeah. He wanted to be with his Mom. It's best for him. He hadn't seen him for four years.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] He missed her.

TY: [Jpn.] Besides he was raised with love.

MK: [Jpn.] That's right. Uh-huh. See? He planned to visit us just for a short while and then return to her mother. But he couldn't do it. It must have been difficult for him to wait for four years.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] I don't really know it, but...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] It must have seemed a very long time for him. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] And then at Tule Lake, after filling in the questionnaire of "yes-yes" and "no-no", because the second generation people had U.S. citizenship...

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] They volunteered to join the service, didn't they?

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Did you know any of those people personally?

MK: [Jpn.] Well, let me see. Not many... oh... there were those at that time.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] But they had jobs at that time.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Even young people worked at various jobs at the kitchen and also at the hospital. There were many jobs in various places.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] So they had jobs. Yeah. Although the pay was very little, they worked.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] So, fathers... no, did you know any family whose children joined the Army?

MK: [Jpn.] Where?

TY: [Jpn.] The second generation people volunteered for the Army...

MK: [Jpn.] The second generation?

TY: [Jpn.] Yes. They volunteered, didn't they?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] For the American armed services.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Do you know any family?

MK: [Jpn.] No, I don't know very much.

TY: [Jpn.] Then, do you have any acquaintances who did that?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. Well, my husband would have known such things very well. He worked there and so he knew everybody...

TY: [Jpn.] Oh, that's right.

MK: [Jpn.] He recognized everybody. I was just a housewife. I just went to a lesson.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] And come home to stay with my children.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Besides, even when I go out, I just visit my friends a little bit. I didn't get involved with very many things. Some people made flowers with paper.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] There was such a teacher from California.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. Some people went to that teacher to learn.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

<End Segment 61> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 62>

TY: [Jpn.] By the way, did you ever worry about the relatives living in Japan?

MK: [Jpn.] Relatives in Japan?

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] We didn't have any relatives left.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] How about your husband...

MK: [Jpn.] They were dead and my husband's relatives were out of contact.

TY: [Jpn.] Is that right?

MK: [Jpn.] I don't know if they were living at the same address or not. My husband didn't say anything. To tell you the truth, we were planning to return to Fukushima a little while after the end of the war. We wanted to visit and take a look the next year since we had never returned there. But he died the very next year.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Uh-huh. He couldn't do that.

TY: [Jpn.] So he died without ever returning.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. 1960.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] That time. It was the third of June, 1960.

TY: [Jpn.] I see. By the way, how about Hideo? He must have worried because all of his classmates were in Japan.

MK: [Jpn.] Yes, he worried, but Japan suffered very much.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] I bet they couldn't worry about others. Because the U.S. bombed. Because of that, everywhere was a mess.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. So nobody had time or energy to worry about others. I don't know, really, but that's my guess. Everybody was so desperate.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Japanese people. Uh-huh. Also, there was a food shortage.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] So the city people took nice clothes to the countryside and exchanged them for food. Didn't you hear those stories?

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] You must have heard. Expensive goods. Potatoes and other foods were not available in cities. So they took them to the farmers. I heard that about the farmers. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Then because you answered "yes-yes," you had no intention to return to Japan, didn't you? You might plan to visit for fun, but returning to Japan...

MK: [Jpn.] No. No. We had no intention from the beginning.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Among the first generation, some wanted to return to Japan by any means...

MK: [Jpn.] Those were...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] ...people who had siblings or whose parents were still alive. They had some means to live in Japan. Some didn't have that. After returning, some people realized they were not welcome by their Japanese relatives.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] If you returned without money. It would be different if you returned with a lot of money.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] But what would you do if you had only a small amount of money which would run out quickly?

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] If you haven't seen each other for a long time, your relatives will be the same as strangers. So you cannot just go back to Japan without a good plan.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] See? Yeah. Of course if you are single, you might be able to survive. If you can find a job there. But if not, if you have a family, it is impossible.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] By the way, after living at Tule Lake for one year and three months, you moved to Heart Mountain in October of 1943.

MK: [Jpn.] Yes, we did.

TY: [Jpn.] Did you request to go there, or...

MK: [Jpn.] No. No. They sent us over there.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Without any advance notice, we were told to go to Heart Mountain. We were totally surprised.

<End Segment 62> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 63>

TY: [Jpn.] By the way, I understand that there were scorpions at Tule Lake. There were many scorpions and snakes, weren't there?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. There were all kinds of things.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] You know a thing called tick?

TY: [Jpn.] Huh.

MK: [Jpn.] Don't you know? Tick? It attaches itself on your head or any part of your body and sucks blood...

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] After it sucks a lot of blood, it falls off.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] It sucks blood till it becomes fully round and then falls off by itself.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Donald had that once, Donald had it attached on his head.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] The best thing to do is... a smoker's... if you put cigarette on it, it will fall off right away.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh, I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Because it is hot.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] So if you use a cigarette, if you are a smoker, it will come off right away.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Nobody in my family smokes.

TY: [Jpn.] Then what did you do?

MK: [Jpn.] Oh, I had somebody else do it.

TY: [Jpn.] Did you look for a smoker?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah. [Laughs]

TY: [Jpn.] Don't you get burnt?

MK: [Jpn.] That one doesn't hurt at all. Yeah. So probably he didn't even know it. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Then what happens? After it sucks your blood? Does it swell?

MK: [Jpn.] No. You don't feel any. Uh-huh. Because it is so small.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Like this. This tiny thing.

TY: [Jpn.] Were they everywhere?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. They were this tiny. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] So there were many ticks and other bugs at Heart Mountain, weren't there?

MK: [Jpn.] It's because children walk everywhere. Do you know what sagebrush is?

TY: [Jpn.] Oh, was there a lot?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. There was sagebrush everywhere.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] And there were are all kinds of creatures in such a place. And children walk around everywhere. So they get those. But it wasn't that bad. I don't think there were any really bad things there. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] And at Tule Lake, if you get stung by "sasori," it would be a real problem, wouldn't it?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] "Sasori" means "scorpion."

MK: [Jpn.] Oh, scorpion.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. Yeah. There were scorpions. Yeah. That was a problem. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] But I don't hear that many people were bitten by those.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah. But you must have been worried about them if you are living there.

MK: [Jpn.] You mean scorpions.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah. You must have been concerned.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. It must be way far back somewhere. We stayed inside the camp. We lived inside the camp and didn't go out toward the either end.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Okay. And Heart Mountain was in Wyoming...

MK: [Jpn.] Other people fished. Those who loved fishing went to Shoshobaker... [Ed. note: narrator is referring to the Shoshone River, Wyoming]

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Was it Shosho Bay? There is a big river there.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] They went fishing there. Fishing. What they caught were... what was it? What do you catch in a river?

TY: [Jpn.] Was it a trout or something like a trout?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. What do you call that? The one you catch in a river... you know, a small slender one like a trout...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] They caught those often. Uh-huh. And those who love fishing won't come home till late at night. There is a lot of time since [inaudible]. So their wives worry. So we all go out to look for them. Then we see them walking leisurely in the dark toward us. They love fishing that much. So they went fishing as often as they could. Yeah. There were people like that. So their wives were worried because the husbands wouldn't come home till late at night.

TY: [Jpn.] Of course they were.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Well, after you moved to Heart Mountain in Wyoming...

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

<End Segment 63> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 64>

TY: [Jpn.] Then you left Hideo behind, and six of you moved, didn't you? Right. Then, what kind of things do you remember about the journey to Heart Mountain? You moved to Heart Mountain from Tule Lake. From Tule Lake.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Well, what do you remember? I suppose you traveled by train...

MK: [Jpn.] What do I remember... oh, sagebrush...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] That is everywhere. If you go there. Besides, even if we lived there, we didn't enter such areas. Those places... I mean sagebrush... we didn't go to an area with sagebrush. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Then...

MK: [Jpn.] Only children would go there.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Children would go to an area like that. Sagebrush, but you can make a lot of things from sagebrush. Small objects. What did they make from sagebrush? You can make anything from those. That thing for flower arrangement. They made a base. They made various things. People who liked doing that made those.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. So you shouldn't ignore sagebrushes because you can make a lot of nice things from them.

TY: [Jpn.] I see. All you need is creativity.

MK: [Jpn.] Uh-huh. There were many people with many experiences.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] So no matter what kind of place they are in, they make something out of it. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] By the way, when you were at Tule Lake, you were notified that you would have to move there. Did you know where you were moving? Did you know you were moving to Wyoming?

MK: [Jpn.] No.

TY: [Jpn.] You didn't know yet.

MK: [Jpn.] We didn't know at all. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Then you traveled again by train with closed blinds...

MK: [Jpn.] We found out only after we arrived.

TY: [Jpn.] Well, then what...

MK: [Jpn.] Before we came...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Where do you want to go...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] They first asked us.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] And a paper is handed out.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] You write down where you want to go.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Of course, it is not impossible. We wrote down, but...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Well, I ended up there. I don't know why.

TY: [Jpn.] Then did you write down "Minidoka?"

MK: [Jpn.] No. No.

TY: [Jpn.] Where the Arakis are.

MK: [Jpn.] Oh, yeah. That Minidoka. In order for us to go there...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] We only wrote down that place because we wanted to join the Arakis. I wrote down that place from the beginning, but I ended up at Tule Lake. And till the end I couldn't go where the Arakis were. I don't know why, but I was sent somewhere else.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Then on the way there, did you have your curtains closed, windows closed?

MK: [Jpn.] No. That didn't happen.

TY: [Jpn.] So this time the windows were open?

MK: [Jpn.] They didn't do that again.

TY: [Jpn.] I see. Then it was only when you left Seattle... upon arriving in Wyoming...

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] But, oh, excuse me...

MK: [Jpn.] Yes?

TY: [Jpn.] While you lived at Tule Lake, didn't you acquire more things? When you lived there for one year, you acquired more things, didn't you?

MK: [Jpn.] Do you mean damaged?

TY: [Jpn.] No, more possessions. You got more things. The household things.

MK: [Jpn.] No, we didn't have any more.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh.

MK: [Jpn.] That's because if you have to sew clothes, you don't get more. Children wear out clothes. We hardly had any more than before. If you ask about having more things... I am sure there were people who had more things and needed help.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. But the government delivered those things to your home. They did deliver. So you didn't have to worry.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Uh-huh. Yeah... so a little... but if you had a big furniture, then I don't know.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Otherwise, they did everything for you.

<End Segment 64> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 65>

TY: [Jpn.] By the way, what were the differences between Heart Mountain and Tule Lake?

MK: [Jpn.] What？

TY: [Jpn.] Differences between Heart Mountain and Tule Lake?

MK: [Jpn.] Oh, the differences were...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] The air was dry.

TY: [Jpn.] Heart Mountain. Do you mean Heart Mountain?

MK: [Jpn.] Uh-huh. Yeah. I mean Heart Mountain.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] It was dry. So as I said before, the snow was not regular snow. It was dry, like powder.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] It's as though it's dancing. Floating. Light and small. So the small snowflakes fit through a keyhole. Can you believe, a keyhole?

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] The snowflakes were that small. And powder-like.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh, through a keyhole.

MK: [Jpn.] Dry snow falls like powder. See? So your clothes won't get wet. It falls off right away.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] So, isn't it a nice place? Heart Mountain was beautiful. I thought it was a nice place.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. Winter didn't feel cold at all. It was cold, but different kind of cold.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] It was not wet cold. It was dry cold. Uh-huh. So the snow falls like powder floating down. As if it is dancing. Wind makes it move this way and that way. Powder snow falls down, dancing around. It was beautiful. We wouldn't know that if we hadn't been to Heart Mountain.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. Really beautiful.

TY: [Jpn.] It was winter soon after you arrived there, wasn't it?

MK: [Jpn.] Yes.

<End Segment 65> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 66>

TY: [Jpn.] That's right. Then, next, will you talk about the Victory Garden?

MK: [Jpn.] Oh, the Victory Garden...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Next to your camp, you know, at the side of your camp...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] You tilled a small plot of land and planted various flowers. Anything. Yeah. Whatever you liked. If you don't want to do it, you don't have to do it. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Did you plant any?

MK: [Jpn.] Well, if you do it, then you have to water it. Don't you think so?

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. Of course, people do it because they enjoy doing it.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] Uh-huh. I didn't want to. I did enough at home. I did enough growing already.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] So I didn't want to do anything like that and instead I went to sewing classes.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh, did you continue sewing classes at Heart Mountain?

MK: [Jpn.] Yes, I continued.

TY: [Jpn.] I see. Did you start anything new?

MK: [Jpn.] No. Not particularly. I didn't do anything else. Unless my friend started, I wouldn't start. We were together and went to the same place. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Then for the first time you had a chance to spend time with your friend.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. That's because people in the barrack...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] We become friends naturally.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] So you would go with a person who wants to go there. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Of course.

MK: [Jpn.] So, so you don't have to worry. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Then, did your husband find a job again?

MK: [Jpn.] No, he did only that.

TY: [Jpn.] In the mess hall kitchen?

MK: [Jpn.] Till he quit.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Then did your children have part-time jobs?

MK: [Jpn.] They didn't do anything. My children each received four dollars a month. I am pretty sure it was four dollars a month.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] They got that. Allowance.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] But it was not enough.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] You withdraw from the bank. My husband went to the bank every day. Besides, it was never enough.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Even if we were fed well, still it was not enough.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] They didn't give us clothes.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Besides, there were rocks on the road. So kids' shoes wore out so quickly. They wore out so soon. My husband had to take their shoes for repair all the time.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh, then, there was a shoe repairman?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. Yeah. So to the shoe store... because the kids were so active.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes. Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] So after this kid is done, then we take another kid. Then that kid is done, and then another one. No wonder we were poor.

<End Segment 66> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 67>

TY: [Jpn.] By the way, did Donald go to the canteen often at Heart Mountain, too?

MK: [Jpn.] Oh, it's everywhere. That was everywhere. You couldn't live without it.

TY: [Jpn.] That's right. You told me before that some children...

MK: [Jpn.] And...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Some people ordered clothes...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] And even materials. They ordered from American places. I don't know which one. There was a canteen and so they had (the order) sent there and made (clothes). Uh-huh. That canteen didn't have much. Yeah. So there were people who were doing that. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Then...

MK: [Jpn.] The canteen was only a small place.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] It's in the barrack and is in a small place. It doesn't have everything.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] So they sent orders to outside sources.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Did they order through catalogs?

MK: [Eng.] Huh?

TY: [Jpn.] Did they order through catalogs?

MK: [Jpn.] Well, I don't know where they ordered.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. They know where to order. Uh-huh.

<End Segment 67> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 68>

TY: [Jpn.] By the way, in June 1944, your fifth child, Robert, Bobby was born in the camp. Right?

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] The first four children were born in Sunnydale or South Park with the help of a midwife.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] She took care of it.

MK: [Jpn.] That's right.

TY: [Jpn.] But this time it was at a camp hospital.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. A hospital in Seattle.

TY: [Jpn.] It was in the camp, wasn't it?

MK: [Jpn.] No, it was a camp hospital.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Everywhere, at both places there was a hospital.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Were there some difference? The first four children were born by the hand of midwives.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. That's right.

TY: [Jpn.] But this time you were surrounded by many other women.

MK: [Jpn.] Oh, that's right. It was at a hospital.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes, it was.

MK: [Jpn.] Well, I was very relaxed.

TY: [Jpn.] Also your neighbors...

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] ...gave some advice.

MK: [Jpn.] Well, we had no choice but to come to the hospital.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Because there was no midwife.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Uh-huh. Because it was run by the Caucasians. Because the Caucasians were running it, they wouldn't allow midwives. No midwives.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] They hospitalized people.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] And Bobby was born. Did you have any complications with his birth?

MK: [Jpn.] No. Nothing.

<End Segment 68> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 69>

TY: [Jpn.] I see. By the way, although Hideo lived in Japan for a long time, he had returned here... I mean Hideo?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] He had U.S. citizenship, didn't he?

MK: [Jpn.] Because he was born in the U.S.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] No problem.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Then did you ever worry if he would be drafted?

MK: [Jpn.] Well, why... since then we had a war... oh, he was here during the war.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] He escaped it.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes. He escaped the draft by the Japanese government, didn't he?

MK: [Jpn.] If he were in Japan...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Of course, he would have been drafted. He came here at the right time.

TY: [Jpn.] It looks like it.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah, come to think about it, he came at the right time. I never thought about it before. About a Japanese soldier.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] I understand those in junior high and senior high were all drafted.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] In Japan.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. Then, it is almost certain he would have been killed. But he escaped.

TY: [Jpn.] But didn't you worry if he might be drafted by the U.S. side?

MK: [Jpn.] No. Because he is Japanese. The U.S. wouldn't trust him.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] See? Because he is Japanese. There is no chance he will enter the U.S. Army.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] But anyway, when you were in Sunnydale, you couldn't get much information about Japan, but in the camp you heard many stories, didn't you?

MK: [Jpn.] Everybody spoke Japanese so fluently. Young people all learned Japanese there.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] When various people gather, they speak Japanese. Grandmothers are speaking Japanese. And the second generation are speaking English. Under these circumstances, they learn little by little.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] One or the other.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Little by little. So that was a great thing. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] And you didn't have a chance to study English before you entered the camp, did you?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. They didn't teach me. They made me work... they wanted me to work. That's why they brought me here.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] So they would not teach me at all.

TY: [Jpn.] Then, did you have a chance to study English after you entered the camp?

MK: [Jpn.] No. My group didn't go to study English. They went to learn flower arranging or cooking or something they liked. I wonder whether anybody went to study English. I've never heard of that.

TY: [Jpn.] Then you let your children handle English?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. That's right. I haven't heard of it. If there were an English class, I would have been. Because we were in the camp. I would think it is a good chance and go there. But I might not have been thinking that much.

<End Segment 69> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 70>

TY: [Jpn.] I understand you had social dances and other activities.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah, there were many things.

TY: [Jpn.] How about those?

MK: [Jpn.] Just like when we were outside, there were many activities.

TY: [Jpn.] Did you attend any of those?

MK: [Eng.] Huh?

TY: [Jpn.] Did you attend those activities?

MK: [Jpn.] Oh, well, maybe we went to a baseball game.

TY: [Jpn.] You mean your husband?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. Also there were other things. Baseball, judo and kendo in Japan. Those things were there. Uh-huh. I think there were many things, but my children... Donald was small. Wherever you went, it really wasn't a big deal. Uh-huh. So none of us went.

TY: [Jpn.] Well, then, did you get any information about the war?

MK: [Eng.] Huh?

TY: [Jpn.] About the war. I mean Japan and the U.S....

MK: [Jpn.] You mean news?

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] The news we heard was always victory. We won, won and won. That's why "the Victory Group" was formed in the camp.

TY: [Jpn.] Was that at Tule Lake?

MK: [Jpn.] The Victory Group. They claimed that they won and said they would go back to Japan after the war. They were the Victory Group. They said they didn't stay in the U.S. So that's why we were divided into two groups. Yeah.

<End Segment 70> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 71>

TY: [Jpn.] Then also at Heart Mountain, you heard the news that Japan won.

MK: [Jpn.] Yes, of course. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Where did you get that kind of information?

MK: [Jpn.] I don't know.

TY: [Jpn.] Was that word-of-mouth?

MK: [Jpn.] There must be some people who get that kind of information. Even in the camp. They must have something for that.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Oh, I bet they have something to listen with. Although I don't know what.

TY: [Jpn.] Did you think Japan would win? Or did you think the U.S. would win?

MK: [Jpn.] Well, first of all, Japan is a small country. It doesn't have many goods and others. On the other hand, the U.S. is such a huge country and has everything. I didn't think Japan would win, but the U.S. didn't think that Japan would last that long. See? (Japan) persevered. Everybody made desperate efforts and were ready to risk their lives. Japanese people were. Once they went for that war, they didn't expect to come home alive. Most of them. So they fought desperately. So the U.S. didn't know or misunderstood. Japan lasted far longer than expected. You know? Even in death, they don't do that, I mean, they don't give up. That's how Japanese were.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] Uh-huh. We are different from Americans. Americans give up easily. We are of a different race. I mean the race of Japanese. Uh-huh. So I say they did very well.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Everyone was desperate... The Tower of White Lilly... it was built there, wasn't it?

TY: [Jpn.] Oh, yes. Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Those people, those women all killed themselves.

TY: [Jpn.] You mean the Tower of Red StarLilly, Okinawa.

MK: [Jpn.] I mean the group suicide in Okinawa.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] They all killed themselves before the American soldiers arrived. You know? Yeah. So I feel really sorry for them. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] By the way, was there any conflict among people of differing opinions at Heart Mountain?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. They were congregating among themselves. The others would not join them unless they share their opinions.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] The only thing we heard was that they talked about such and such. But we ourselves never join their group. Yeah. We never join them. Anyway, even if Japan wins, no matter which side wins, we have no intention of returning to Japan. Even if Japan wins, our children are growing up here and so we will stay here.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Were there people who were arguing or quarreling about such matters?

MK: [Jpn.] Well, they must have said many things, but we didn't join their discussions.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] So you stayed at Heart Mountain for about a year and a half, till 1945.

MK: [Jpn.] Yes.

TY: [Jpn.] And then the war ended. But how did you find out the war had ended?

MK: [Jpn.] Oh, right away, immediately, they made an announcement.

TY: [Jpn.] What did you think?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. So the Victory Group had a hard time. You know? They always said that Japan won. When the U.S. said that Japan lost, they insisted that Japan won, won, won. I don't know where they got that idea.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] That's what I was told.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] So those in the Victory Group were forever in the Victory Group. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Then what did you think when you heard that Japan had lost?

MK: [Jpn.] Well because I was in the U.S.... Well, Japan, in Japan, when I think of children, relatives, I mean, Hideo, I wished they had won. But at the same time, if the U.S. had lost, it would have been a big problem for us.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] You know, either way... I couldn't say one way or the other at such a time.

TY: [Jpn.] I understand.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Did your husband feel the same way?

MK: [Jpn.] He was after all on the U.S. side.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] Uh-huh. Besides, if my husband went back to Japan, he wouldn't have anything but his body. He had nothing but his own body. He had no money. It is easier to live in the U.S. Even if you don't have anything, you can make a living in the U.S. If you have a healthy body, you can work anywhere and make a living. The U.S. is a wonderful country.

TY: [Jpn.] Well then, were you in contact with Hideo who stayed behind at Tule Lake after you stayed behind in Heart Mountain?

MK: [Jpn.] Oh, no, we weren't.

TY: [Jpn.] You weren't.

MK: [Jpn.] No.

TY: [Jpn.] Then you didn't know when he returned?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. Right. We didn't know when he returned.

TY: [Jpn.] You knew he would return, didn't you?

MK: [Jpn.] Yes.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Well while he was there, he insisted he wouldn't go back.

[Interruption]

TY: [Jpn.] Did you try to persuade him? At that time?

MK: [Jpn.] What?

TY: [Jpn.] When you had to fill out either "yes-yes" or "no-no," did you try to persuade Hideo?

MK: [Jpn.] No. No. No.

TY: [Jpn.] No?

MK: [Jpn.] I didn't say anything to him.

TY: [Jpn.] Because you respected his opinions?

MK: [Jpn.] That was something that you had to think for yourself.

TY: [Jpn.] You are right.

MK: [Jpn.] He was no longer a child.

<End Segment 71> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 72>

TY: [Jpn.] I see. By the way, you left Heart Mountain in August of 1945.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] That was right after the war ended, wasn't it?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah, that's right. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] And I was told that you first went to South Park.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. We went to South Park.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Because Sunnydale was...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] The person who occupied the house wouldn't move out.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh, that neighbor?

MK: [Jpn.] If he wouldn't move out, how can we move in there even if it's our own house?

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] I received a favor at South Park until that place became empty. Until he moved out.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] The house in South Park was full of people because all of us showed up there suddenly.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] There.

TY: [Jpn.] Then, did the Arakis leave before you?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. Before or not, I think we left at the same time.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] But I don't know where they left because we stayed at different camps.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] You know? So they probably left a little earlier because they had their own house.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] They leave early. Yeah. So it looks like they left earlier.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] So the Arakis were like your sponsor and you went to the Arakis' house.

MK: [Jpn.] Yes.

TY: [Jpn.] Then if you couldn't have gone to the Arakis' house, would you have stayed in the camp a little longer?

MK: [Jpn.] No. I don't think you can stay in the camp. Everybody had to leave when you were told to leave.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] I think they had to clean it. You had to go out and find a job or do something. I didn't think about those things.

TY: [Jpn.] So when the war ended, did you feel that finally you could leave or did you worry about what would happen from then on?

MK: [Jpn.] No, I didn't have to worry because once we got home, we had everything to run the greenhouse.

TY: [Jpn.] So all you had to do was to rebuild the greenhouse.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah, Yeah. All we had to do was go home.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Well, since we were away for as long as four years, we were prepared to find nothing.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah, so we had to start all over. It wasn't easy to start. Even if you had some money saved, if you didn't use it... you know? So you could say we became poor because of this war.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] When your life was getting in order, the war-

MK: [Jpn.] If it weren't for the war, we would have been pretty well-off. In everything. But everything was halted suddenly. But I thought we would be back in one year.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] That was a mistake.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. No wars end in one year. Really.

TY: [Jpn.] But you didn't know that at that time. How long it would be.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. So the sooner we returned, the better off we would have been, but four years was too long. Uh-huh. So it looked like we lost everything.

TY: [Jpn.] That's right. Even if you had your house, your car was... by your neighbor...

MK: [Jpn.] Everything, you know.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes, I understand.

MK: [Jpn.] That's right. Uh-huh. Because it was so long. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] By the way, you could return just before your home was put on the market...

MK: [Jpn.] Oh, yeah, that's what I was told.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] In addition, if it weren't for [inaudible], we wouldn't have known it. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] I see. That makes you shudder, doesn't it? If you had returned a little later...

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah, that's right.

TY: [Jpn.] You had no other place to go.

MK: [Jpn.] But shikata ga nai.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Because the war was Japan's fault.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Because we are Japanese, shikata ga nai.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] By the way, you returned to South Park from Heart Mountain by train...

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah, well, we returned to South Park and then by the time the school started in Sunnydale, we returned to Sunnydale.

TY: [Jpn.] Then you didn't stay in South Park very long, did you?

MK: [Jpn.] No, no. Until my house was vacated.

TY: [Jpn.] I see. Then how long did you stay in South Park? At the Araki's?

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] How long did you stay there?

MK: [Jpn.] Oh, that's why we didn't stay there even for one month.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] How many days did we stay there? It wasn't very long. Because my children had to start school. They had to go to school.

TY: [Jpn.] Lilly was already a junior high student.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. That's right. Uh-huh. Yeah. But there were big problems.

TY: [Jpn.] This time you had five children and also a baby...

<End Segment 72> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 73>

TY: [Jpn.] Bythe way, I heard the school principal at Sunnydale said something...

MK: [Jpn.] That was, Sunnydale principal was... oh, that was a high school.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] In my area, the grammar school was there.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] In front of us. The high school was over there, way back. And the principal of that high school said something. I was told by others.

TY: [Jpn.] What did you hear?

MK: [Jpn.] "You shouldn't, you shouldn't come back here," he said. That is, "You shouldn't come back here." He said so.

TY: [Jpn.] It means he would not accept you.

MK: [Jpn.] He couldn't help thinking that way because we were "enemy foreigners." Because it was Japan which started the war. So foreigners... but looking back, I think that our lives were saved because we were put into the camps. The reason is that many Americans went to the war and were killed by Japanese. Many of them. Then what would they think? The Japanese were enemies. Don't you think so?

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Well, Americans living here would think that way, wouldn't they? Their sons were killed because of Japan. They wouldn't be happy. So they were not happy to welcome us when we returned. That's why, "You shouldn't come back here."

TY: [Jpn.] Then...

MK: [Jpn.] They say "You shouldn't come back here." Shikata ga nai if they had said so.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Don't you agree?

TY: [Jpn.] Well...

MK: [Jpn.] Uh-huh. Because we were foreigners. Yeah. So it was quite natural for the principal or anybody else to think that way and say so.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Uh-huh. Yeah. That's right. Uh-huh. If Japan had not started, their sons wouldn't have to go to war, they would think. You know? But many Americans went to war and were killed. Yeah. So they are not happy. So isn't it more realistic for them to say so to us? Uh-huh. I don't think I'm wrong. What do you think about what I just said?

TY: [Jpn.] It would have been a shock. Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] Do you think it's wrong to think that way? Do you wish us or Japan had won? Yeah, it's natural that when you live in the U.S., you support the U.S. You will end up that way no matter what.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. Besides, our children were raised in the U.S.... American people and American land.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] That's why in the U.S.... well, If I go back to Japan, I have no means to make a living and so no matter what the Americans say, we will stay in the U.S. Uh-huh. It's not just for our children. It's also for us because if we return from the U.S. without anything to show, they will ask why we came back. You see? When you have nothing to show off but yourself and return (to Japan), nobody will be glad to see you. Uh-huh. So it's only natural for us to stay in the U.S. Uh-huh.

<End Segment 73> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 74>

TY: [Jpn.] Then even if you were told not to come back to Sunnydale...

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] You returned.

MK: [Jpn.] We returned.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Where could we go? There was nowhere else to go.

TY: [Jpn.] I see. Then you started rebuilding the greenhouse?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Then, did you experience any harassment after you returned?

MK: [Jpn.] No, not much. But we didn't go out as much as we used to in the old days. We tried to be inconspicuous.

TY: [Jpn.] So you were very careful, weren't you?

MK: [Jpn.] When the Caucasians weren't very happy, why do you want to go out and show yourselves?

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] See? We were very careful not to be noticed. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Then how about your children at school?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. I suppose they do equally, but I don't really know. But they hear from their parents. Japanese students... no, the children at school weren't very happy about us. Uh-huh. That's why my boy did that type of thing. That little boy waited outside for those students to come out.

TY: [Jpn.] Donald?

MK: [Jpn.] He waited to fight them.

TY: [Jpn.] What, what happened?

MK: [Jpn.] My Donald.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Donald... Japan....went there and was bullied.

TY: [Jpn.] Because he was a Japanese.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. They all heard from their parents.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] So the Japanese came back. It was the same as the enemies coming back. See? I think that's why he was bullied. I never heard exactly how he was bullied, but a teacher told us.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] I was told that Mr. Isoka's teacher said so. It was scary. That little boy was waiting outside ready to beat them up. There was no way that little boy could beat them up, but what shall I say, well, what can I say, I don't know what he was feeling, but probably he didn't want to be a loser.

TY: [Jpn.] Was he fighting against upperclassmen?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. I heard that so nobody dared to come out.

TY: [Jpn.] When the little one was waiting outside alone...

MK: [Jpn.] The teacher said so, and so it must be true.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] It's embarrassing.

TY: [Jpn.] Then he was fighting before coming home, wasn't he?

MK: [Jpn.] That's a child's thing. Because he is not an adult, the teacher was not too concerned. It's only children's things. What a first grader can do? [Laughs]

TY: [Jpn.] But didn't your older children do such things?

MK: [Jpn.] No, they didn't. The older ones were more thoughtful and careful. I never heard they were ever bullied.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Only the little one did. Uh-huh. Yeah. We cannot control him.

<End Segment 74> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 75>

TY: [Jpn.] By the way, you said earlier that your household items had been used.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] When you returned. Of course you would expect dust and dirt... even if you were living...

MK: [Jpn.] They say they asked to take care, but they asked Caucasians. All of them. There wasn't a single Japanese. It is foolish to trust them, isn't it?

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] Japan attacked Pearl Harbor and so we should think we are the enemy foreigners living here, but we don't think that way. We want to think the old friends are still good friends. We should say "Thank you" for taking care of our possessions. There is nowhere else to go. When you ask them to keep your things, you still get those things back. Whether they used it or not, whether they are still new or old... anyway, it's not that they disappeared totally.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] So it's best not to worry about such small matters.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] So you just returned...

MK: [Jpn.] That's right.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Isn't better to be glad that we have healthy bodies and could come home. Yeah. But we all are greedy. "I wish I took those with me instead leaving them with them." " I could have taken them with me," people say. That's not true at all. Who could have taken furniture with him? We could take only our bodies. It's only natural that we lost some possessions. This is shikata ga nai. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] So you returned to your own home after four years.

MK: [Jpn.] That's right.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Therefore, if you expect to see nothing, it would be better. It is bad to expect everything there.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] See? Uh-huh. Yeah. But...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] But there are many Caucasians who kept things in good condition. Even Caucasians.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] There are some Caucasians who are very conscientious.

TY: [Jpn.] It all depends on the individual, doesn't it?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah, it depends on the individual. When I heard that story, I was impressed and thought the Caucasians were great. Yeah. The Caucasians have a different basis than the Japanese. The Caucasians are very simple. Simple. What do you think of your Caucasian friend? Don't you think they are simple? Simpler than Japanese? If you grew up in Japan, probably you are not very complicated, are you?

TY: ...

MK: [Jpn.] I don't know much about Caucasians. But I heard other people say so and so I think it's probably so.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] I have never had such an experience. Yeah. But even now, a friend of mine who made a Caucasian friend says a Caucasian friend is easier. The Japanese are more difficult. Uh-huh. The Caucasians are more open.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] And Caucasians are open about themselves. They tell others openly about themselves. The Japanese people cannot do that. Yeah. The Japanese cannot... what shall I say... Japanese first generation immigrants. The Japanese, the Japanese who are living in Japan are all that way. Because it is a small country. You cannot do anything openly, can you? But the Caucasians are big here, big in heart. Everybody. Uh-huh. Yeah.

<End Segment 75> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 76>

TY: [Jpn.] I see. By the way, did you say that Araki's greenhouse was taken care of by somebody?

MK: [Jpn.] Yes, that's what I heard.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] So because they told the person ahead of time, it was vacated when they returned. That's why they returned early.

TY: [Jpn.] I see. On the other hand, your greenhouse was damaged, wasn't it?

MK: [Jpn.] No, the greenhouse was not damaged. It stood there.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Well, but the bulbs... the bulbs were outside.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Every year you have to dig them out and then replant them.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] You sell big ones.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] When they reach the right size. We grow them to sell. After we sell those, we replant the remaining ones and fertilize them to grow bigger the next year.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] But before we could do it, we went to camp. We ordered the fertilizer but just left it there. What purpose...

TY: [Jpn.] It became unusable.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. That's right. So the bulbs were not dug out and were left there for four years. So they were damaged.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] They get smaller and smaller. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] By the way, you told me that the person who took care of your greenhouse kept chickens there. Chickens.

MK: [Jpn.] What? Oh, yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] No matter what he keeps, what right do I have to complain? We weren't there.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes. What happened to the chickens when he vacated?

MK: [Jpn.] No, when we returned, there was nothing. He cleaned out. Yeah. He cleaned out . So there was nothing.

TY: [Jpn.] I see. Then when you rebuilt the greenhouse...

MK: [Jpn.] No, you don't need to rebuild it even if you weren't there for four years. It's only that there were no crops. We had to redo the soil and everything.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] We had to start from the beginning. It's only inside. Crops.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] What did you grow first?

MK: [Jpn.] Well, cucumbers and tomatoes are really quick.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] You only need to sow seeds and grow plants. Because the greenhouse is warm, they grow fast. They are the quickest.

TY: [Jpn.] They bring cash income right away? I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. To grow flowers, you have to start with small seeds and then transplant them, but we didn't have time to do that. We came back in August. We returned in September, August. August is the time everything is ready to harvest. August. So we couldn't grow anything that year.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Then how...

MK: [Jpn.] We couldn't grow, but we checked outside and repaired the greenhouse. We waited during winter and talked about what to grow in spring. So we spent that time preparing. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] We only made preparations and had no time to grow anything.

TY: [Jpn.] It must have been difficult to manage those.

MK: [Jpn.] You know. Nothing for August. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah. By the way, in September of 1947, your sixth child Paul was born, wasn't he?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

<End Segment 76> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 77>

TY: [Jpn.] In 1947, two years after the war ended, Paul was born. And in October of 1949, two years later, the seventh child Alan was born?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah, Alan.

TY: [Jpn.] Alan was born.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah, he was born.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes, and both Paul and Alan were born at a hospital, weren't they?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. That's right.

TY: [Jpn.] Was a midwife still...?

MK: [Jpn.] It was not a midwife, but I went to a hospital.

TY: [Jpn.] Which one?

MK: [Jpn.] The midwives were probably gone by that time because they were quite old.

TY: [Jpn.] Probably. It's been over ten years since the first baby.

MK: [Jpn.] That's right. After we returned from the camp, I didn't hear much about midwives. There might have been, but because I lived in Sunnydale and not in a city, I didn't hear about it.

TY: [Jpn.] And this time again, did you work till you had a baby?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Which hospital did you go to?

MK: [Jpn.] Oh, Virginia Mason, I think.

TY: [Jpn.] I see... and...

MK: [Jpn.] And at that time there was a Japanese doctor, Dr. Suzuki. Dr. Suzuki...

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] They did everything. In those days, after the Japanese returned, they became many things such as Dr. Suzuki and there was another Japanese doctor. There were two Japanese doctors. Who was the other one? He is still working there. What was his name? I can't remember his name. Besides Dr. Suzuki, there was another one. What was his name? That doctor? What was it? It will come up when I am not thinking... that doctor... I don't remember...

[Interruption]

TY: [Jpn.] When you remember...

MK: [Jpn.] What?

TY: [Jpn.] Tell me later when you remember.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. I will remember later.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes, tell me then.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Well, then, how long did it take to rebuild or put the greenhouse back on track?

MK: [Jpn.] Oh, greenhouse. We built one greenhouse and didn't build any more. We just left one there.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] We just worked with the one there.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes. How long did it take to make a profit... to do well?

MK: [Jpn.] What?

TY: [Jpn.] You started working in the greenhouse, didn't you?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Then how long did it take before you were doing well financially or were making a good living?

MK: [Jpn.] Well, let me see.

TY: [Jpn.] You started from the beginning again.

MK: [Jpn.] Well it took good five years. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] You were living with seven children?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. Yeah.

<End Segment 77> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 78>

TY: [Jpn.] I see. Then in 1954, four or five years after your family business became profitable...

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] You applied for citizenship?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. Citizenship.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] That one...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] They wouldn't give us till then.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] They didn't give us no matter what. But, do you know the 442nd?

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] That was formed from many camps. They collected and formed a Japanese one. They called it the 442nd. And then they went to Italy...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] They did many meritorious deeds. They risked their lives. They went to the area where the Caucasians would not dare go. This 442nd went and did those. Yeah. That's why they decided to give Japanese people citizenship after the war. That's how it started. Uh-huh. Although I don't understand English, I went to what you call... a school. It sounds funny to call it a school, but something like that. You go there for a while. They have a book for that.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] There were many books with questions they might ask. We were given small books. We study those. Yeah. You just memorize those, but it doesn't work that way. You have to study a lot. If you cannot speak Japanese, you can do it in Japanese.

TY: [Jpn.] Oh, was that how it was?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. But some had to do it in English. Those who grew up here do it in English because they went to school in the U.S. They did it that way.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] So you could do it either way. I did it.

TY: [Jpn.] Which test did you take?

MK: [Jpn.] I took it in Japanese.

TY: [Jpn.] Did you husband do in Japanese, too?

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Did you take it at the same time?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah, but each person has a different time.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] You are called in.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] And they ask questions from among those.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. Then after you do it, they total it and with the total, you pass.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Uh-huh. Then I got my citizenship.

TY: [Jpn.] I see. Then, let's have a break.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

[Interruption]

<End Segment 78> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 79>

TY: [Jpn.] Well, I would like to ask you about the time you got your U.S. citizenship in 1954.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Well, you took the test in Japanese, didn't you?

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Where did you study for it?

MK: [Jpn. & Eng.] That one was, well, not at the immigration office. I think it was maybe the immigration office. They gonna go same place. Then, Japanese paper is a Japanese. Because we can't talk English you know, so Japanese special people, teach me, teach everybody. But still they can't talk to English, because answer... that's why some people, only Japanese way. Uh-huh. That's fine.

TY: [Jpn.] Then when you answer in Japanese...

MK: [Eng.] Oh, yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Did the examiner ask questions in Japanese?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. I think a Japanese gave an okay. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] And your husband took it together, didn't he?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Did your husband do it at the same time?

MK: [Jpn.] A black person?

TY: [Jpn.] No, your husband.

MK: [Eng.] Oh yeah. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Naoe.

MK: [Jpn.] But at a different time.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] The time was different. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Which of you took it first?

MK: [Jpn.] Me.

TY: [Jpn.] Why did you want to take it?

MK: [Eng.] Oh, because I got a property. That's why I want my property. That's not mine. That's somebody else name. That's not mine.

TY: [Jpn.] Mr. Araki's... Mr. Araki's son.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, that's why both want American citizen. Yeah. That's why.

TY: [Jpn.] Then in order to make the land you had owned, registered under your name?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah. It's only my... that's against law though. Yeah. People's name, you can't borrow America. That's why I don't want to talk though. That's worst. Yeah. Uh-huh. You can't.

TY: [Jpn.] Then after you obtained the citizenship, you could own it.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, yeah. Then change it to my Kurosu name.

TY: [Jpn.] From Araki name.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, that's right. That's right. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah. Well, then, if you had had a chance to obtain it earlier, would you have done so?

MK: [Eng.] No. No chance.

TY: [Jpn.] If you could...

MK: [Eng.] No chance.

TY: [Jpn.] Because the law forbid you.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, no, no. Uh-huh. Only American-born. Mmm.

TY: [Jpn.] By the way, you received a notice that Japanese people can now obtain citizenship, didn't you?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] How did you find out?

MK: [Jpn.] Here?

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah. How you can obtain the U.S. citizenship.

MK: [Eng.] No, no. Because father here huh? Then, what do you say? They want kids come to America. Even some -- I don't know, somewhere I think -- no, I don't know too much that kind of stuff. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Well, then, how long did you study before you took the citizenship test?

MK: [Jpn.] Oh, three months. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Was it difficult?

MK: [Eng.] No. They give me easy one. Because, because Japanese that's why, uh-huh. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Then when you obtained the citizenship, the U.S. citizenship, you took an American name "Marian," didn't you?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, you could. That time change if you want change your name to any way you want. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Did you make "Marian" your first or middle name?

MK: [Jpn.] Oh, Asao?

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah, Marian.

MK: [Jpn.] Marian Asao Kurosu.

TY: [Jpn.] I see. Then Marian became your first name?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah. That's it. Because I live Ameri -- I live America so first name is American name. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Why "Marian"?

MK: [Jpn.] What?

TY: [Jpn.] How did you decide on the name "Marian"?

MK: [Eng.] Oh, because -- because American people easy to understand American name. Not Japanese name. Asao nobody can understand. Right?

TY: [Jpn.] Then how did you choose that name "Marian"?

MK: [Eng.] Oh, because my husband likes that name. That's why I take it. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] I see. Then you husband said this is a good name.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] By the way, your husband had the nickname "Roy" from before, didn't he?

MK: [Eng.] No, same way, Roy Naoe Kurosu. That time, same time they, he want Roy. That's Roy name. He likes. So, he, so he American name Roy, then Naoe Kurosu. And I am Marian Asao Kurosu. See?

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] So I made my Japanese name a middle name.

TY: [Jpn.] The bag you made at the camp already has the name "Roy" written.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Then was he using Roy as a nickname already in those days?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] But then that became official, didn't it?

MK: [Eng.] Because, because I take before a go to camp. That's why I got my name, yeah. Before cam -- no, that's, that's a wrong way. But afterward, huh? Afterward camp. But still I made that in camp though. Why? Yeah, that's right.

TY: [Jpn.] So probably it was his nickname. Probably.

MK: [Eng.] Mmm, maybe so, huh.

TY: [Jpn.] And your citizenship...

MK: [Eng.] I can't understand why I use that name.

TY: [Jpn.] And so you obtained U.S. citizenship along with your husband in 1954...

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] You became a citizen.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh, yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Your children were by birth... because they were second generation...

MK: [Eng.] Oh, yeah, that's right.

TY: [Jpn.] They had it.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, uh-huh.

<End Segment 79> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 80>

TY: [Jpn.] You said earlier that discrimination could not be helped because you were enemy foreigners, but...

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] What did you think of the discrimination against your children? They were American children.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, but well... I don't know what they think.

TY: [Jpn.] But what did you think? You said it couldn't be helped if your children were discriminated because you were "enemy foreigners."

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] You said it was shikata ga nai.

MK: [Jpn.] But children don't think so.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah. Then what did you think about your children being discriminated against that way?

MK: [Jpn.] The children do not think that way.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] That's why Donald...

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. The adults think that way, but not the children. And the children... the parents don't tell their children that the Caucasians and the Japanese discriminate or their problems.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] To their children?

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. We don't talk about such unpleasant topics.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] When they are studying hard in the U.S.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] That is an unnecessary burden. Uh-huh. What the parents think is very different from what the children think. The children are free Americans. That's the difference.

TY: [Jpn.] Then your children... although it couldn't be helped for you adults...

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] The children...

MK: [Eng.] Nothing could be done for us. That's way it goes. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] But when your children are discriminated...

MK: [Jpn.] No, the children don't do that. Uh-huh. That's why it's nice. Huh?

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Eng.] That's good. Uh-huh.

<End Segment 80> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 81>

TY: [Jpn.] By the way, you said your husband passed away in 1960, on June 3rd?

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] And just one year earlier you two talked about visiting Fukushima?

MK: [Jpn.] That's right. Just the previous year.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] We planned to go, but because he died, shikata ga nai.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Instead, he died suddenly. He suddenly died of a heart attack.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Eng.] Well, I don't know what to do.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Eng.] That's why maybe go this way, maybe, maybe quit, or still keep going or not. Very hard to decide, you know.

TY: [Jpn.] When you were only forty-three years old and had seven children.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] The youngest was only sixteen, right?

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] And then...

MK: [Jpn.] Oh...

TY: [Jpn.] What? Forty...

MK: [Jpn.] Alan was not that...

TY: [Jpn.] Oh, that's right. Alan was eleven years old, wasn't he?

MK: [Jpn.] That's right. Alan was not that old. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes, he was young.

MK: [Eng.] So after he died, Alan... summertime... everybody, parents take to anywhere, you know go because summer vacation. But I can't because I'm, not enough hand. That's why always, Alan complaining all time. Yeah, everything complain. Very sad for him. Yeah. Other kids you know, daddy take to baseball sometime, but that's nothing. You know so, I'm too busy so, then I can't drive either, that's why very sorry for kids. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] And you had your husband handle everything, didn't you?

MK: [Eng.] Oh, yeah. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Can you tell me what happened to you? I understand you didn't even know how to write a check.

MK: [Jpn.] No, no, nothing. I didn't even know how to write a check. Nothing.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] When I had to sign, I didn't know where to sign.

TY: [Jpn.] Because your husband did everything till then.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah. That's why everything just like black. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] You must have worried about money when you lost your main bread earner.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah, that's right.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] So then you asked your son Roy not to go to college...

MK: [Eng.] Yeah. Because they want to go to another, another school, but I gonna give up alright anytime, huh, then I don't need ask him. But I spend lots of greenhouse and land, everything, that's why I can't quit. Then kids small too.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Eng.] That's why you have to some way go to maybe keep going. That's why I ask the Roy. Roy don't want to. Roy was... Roy's... always he want to. But this is special, you know, that's why, that's why they, he help a, he help us. Uh-huh, yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] So even after your husband passed away, you kept the greenhouse going...

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Until you retired. You retired at the age of seventy-five, didn't you?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah, seventy-four.

TY: [Jpn.] Seventy-four.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. Yeah. That's right.

TY: [Jpn.] Till then, after your husband passed away, you kept the greenhouse...

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. I worked in the greenhouse. At that time...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] Lilian and Lilian's Saburo... that's a husband.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Eng.] Everybody Saturday, Sunday come to help, help us.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, that's why kids are hard, hard life too. Yeah, very hard. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Everybody helped you.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, every Friday, Saturday, some boy or girl come back and help, Uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah, very hard time, it was.

TY: [Jpn.] Why did you decide to continue the greenhouse farming?

MK: [Eng.] Oh, greenhouse start, sell...

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah. You didn't sell it, but continued the farming.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah, I thought we could keep going, but...

TY: [Jpn.] Your children...

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah, I thought about Roy.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] If Roy doesn't want to do, he doesn't have to keep going forever. Isn't it right?

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] If I kept going, it would be okay with me, but if it is not good for the kids, then I should think about it. Isn't it right?

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] No matter how much you didn't want to sell it, if you think it is best for everybody, you had no choice but to do it. To be honest with you, if we had kept going, everything would have been better. Everything. So I really didn't want to quit, but I cannot just think about myself. Yeah. So I quit.

<End Segment 81> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 82>

TY: [Jpn.] Yes. Then you retired at age seventy-four.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Then you came to Seattle.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. I came to Seattle.

TY: [Jpn.] You started living here.

MK: [Jpn. & Eng.] Uh-huh. Yeah. Then when I started living here, this is very embarrassing to tell, but then during most of my childhood... Until girls school graduate, huh. My grandfather did everything for me. I had nothing to do. Because only two people, what you gonna do? I don't have a little brother or sister, or any... so my grandfather cooked rice only. Sometimes he cooked side dishes. But he never made tea for me because he himself never drank tea. I didn't know how to drink tea.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] Really. Uh-huh. So it was strange. While everybody knows everything, I don't know this or that. If you watched your mother cook, then you will naturally learn. Sometimes kids help their mother in the kitchen. I didn't have that. There was no woman in my family. I had only grandfather. And my grandfather was raising his four sons and me. He never raised a girl. So he raised me in the same way as the boys. Uh-huh. Yeah. If I had a mother, she would have told me, no, do it this way or a girl should do this. But I didn't have that at all. So naturally I cannot cook. I cannot cook because my grandfather never told me to cook and I never cooked.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] And it's nothing to cook rice for two people. But I don't know how. In those days, he did everything for me and I ate when he told me to eat. He cleaned up afterwards, too. The dishes were only for two of us. Grandfather had to move around, too. Anyway, that's what he told me.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] But really, my grandfather was old and if he didn't do anything, it would be bad for him. So that was not too bad. Now I think that might have been pretty good for him.

TY: [Jpn.] Under the circumstances.

MK: [Jpn.] He had to move around. Uh-huh. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] But still, except for the four years you were in the camp...

MK: [Jpn.] So I was with my grandfather. When my grandfather got sick... it was not sickness. That was old age. Because of his old age.

TY: [Jpn.] Died of old age?

MK: [Jpn.] So he died naturally. Uh-huh. He didn't get any particular sickness. He died of old age. Uh-huh. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] So you came to the U.S. and kept working since...

MK: [Eng.] Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] You never had a chance to play.

MK: [Jpn.] No time to play. I was always working overtime. Really. Yeah. So sometimes everybody works. You know, a wheelbarrow? You don't know? It's like this and is made of metal.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] And this is how you hold it. You can push this. I have carried full of soil in the wheelbarrow.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. But at South Park, my uncle's place, they always had some help, men helpers. Uh-huh. But sometimes the men helpers were not enough, then I helped by carrying soil. Well, I was young and so I could handle it even though I was small. Yeah. Youth is wonderful. I had pushed that one, I would fall down.

TY: [Jpn.] I see. Then you moved to Seattle and now you take the bus to go to many places...

MK: [Eng.] Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] ...and are having many experiences.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah. I can do that only because of Mrs. Kitajo. There is a person who's name is Mrs. Kitajo. She helps me a lot. Yeah, she's a stay in Seattle. Then she's a retire, too. So, sometime you gonna come to here, she said. Then stay in Seattle, so I go over there, then I gonna follow her. If, she want to go downtown, I gonnna go follow her. Then she teaching me something. First time I never, nobody give me brea -- my, because my -- I don't need a money, because my grandfather did everything for me. So I didn't worry about eating. If I wanted some allowance, he will give me. So, I never go to a store. I don't need it. That's why then I come to America, then go to greenhouse work, then I don't need any more money. Because cooks prepared meals. You know because I fail make rice, that's why I just working only. That's why I don't need a go to school, I don't need a money. I don't need a pay and a store -- I never go to store anyway because I never cook anything so that's why always like that. I don't know why always I don't need a money. Yeah. Somebody making cook and then just I gonna eat only. So, that's why I come to Seattle, what you gonna do? Now, I gonna go shopping, because I need it. But I don't know. So, she help me, Mrs. Kitajo help me all time. Then go to shopping, then just I gonna follow that's it. Just I watch it, uh-huh. Then pretty soon oh, maybe, you know little bit that's why you gonna shopping you self. So I try. Then, I gonna -- I buy something, then I gonna put a -- I gonna pay a them, then I -- they gonna give me change. So, but I forgot sometime my stuff. I put over here, then changes that's very important, you know. So I forgot. Yeah, then come back here. "You forgot your stuff." Then, oh, that's right. Then come back, and go out. Then other way, other way down, to, I gonna pay, but I take it my stuff, but I forgot change. Yeah, they gonna give me change but I gonna, go, go back you know. [Coughs] Excuse me. Then, she said, "You forget your change," so go back. That's why I gonna shopping little by little. Pretty good. Mmm.

<End Segment 82> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 83>

TY: [Jpn.] And then in 1990, the government wrote an apology letter to those who were in the internment camps and gave redress money. It gave compensation money to those who were in the camps.

MK: [Jpn.] Money?

TY: [Jpn.] It started handing out. The government gave redress money to those who were in the internment camps.

MK: [Jpn.] No. They didn't give us a subsidy. No subsidy.

TY: [Jpn.] Redress money and not a subsidy.

MK: [Jpn.] Redress money?

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah. You received it, didn't you? An apology, apology money. The government paid some money for an apology because many people lost so much.

MK: [Eng.] No, no, no, that's later.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Eng.] Yeah, after the war, it, that's right. Twenty-thousand.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Eng.] Twenty-thousand --

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] -- everybody same way. Yeah, that's right.

TY: [Jpn.] So what did you think when you received your redress money?

MK: [Jpn.] But, yeah, well... it's better than nothing. Because even if we got that much...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] It is nothing compared to the amount of money I lost. Four years.

TY: [Jpn.] You are right.

MK: [Jpn.] Because if you are an employed worker, you can get that money. But in my case everything we had worked for was ruined. With that small amount of money... that kind money will not be enough to put my business back.

TY: [Jpn.] That's right.

MK: [Jpn.] So I say thank you and it's better than nothing, but it doesn't really redress anything. Uh-huh.

[Interruption]

TY: [Jpn.] I understand that Hideo also could receive the redress money with the help of Lilly.

MK: [Jpn.] Oh, where?

TY: [Jpn.] I hear that Hideo also received the redress money?

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah, he could. Later.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] We helped him later.

TY: [Jpn.] I see.

MK: [Jpn.] If we hadn't, he wouldn't have known about it.

TY: [Jpn.] That's right.

MK: [Jpn.] Uh-huh. Those who were in Japan didn't know.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] So he received it. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] Was Hideo happy?

MK: [Eng.] Yeah. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] He must be... for four years...

MK: [Jpn.] Naturally. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Because he was put in the camp. By the way, is there anything else with respect to the war or internment camps that you would like to tell to younger generations?

MK: [Jpn.] Well, to younger generations...but everything will change...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes, it will.

MK: [Jpn.] It won't work the way I think. The world changes really fast. Look at the kids today. They are young, but they have completely changed. Yeah. Japan and the U.S. are now same. So many changes... in many ways. But there are not many good changes. There are so many bad things. Well, if you just read a newspaper... it's not easy for the kids nowadays. Yeah.

<End Segment 83> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 84>

TY: [Jpn.] Is there anything else?

MK: [Jpn.] Well, other things...

TY: [Jpn.] There are many things to discuss. I wish we had more time to hear your stories...

MK: [Jpn.] Yes. But when you are as old as I am...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] What I think... well, I try not to think. If I were a little younger, I might think I wish someone do this or that or I wish it would be this way. I would think so. But in my case I have only today and no tomorrow. To be honest with you, I am alive today, but you never know if I will be here tomorrow. Think of my age. That's why I just try to live this day happily. Make every day happy and precious. Yeah. If someone asks me out, I will go out with that person and enjoy it. So when someone asks me if I would go out together on such-and-such date the next time, I never say no. Always. Any time. I always accept their offer and thank them in my heart. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] So that's why you travel a lot.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. That's right. I saw many things.

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] I listen to many things and enjoy them. Uh-huh.

TY: [Jpn.] You keep doing...

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. Even at my age, I sometimes think I still have ten years or twenty years.

TY: [Jpn.] You have.

MK: [Jpn.] It is silly to think that kind of thing.

TY: [Jpn.] Really?

MK: [Jpn.] Uh-huh. So if I am healthy today...

TY: [Jpn.] Yes.

MK: [Jpn.] And if you are healthy, there is nothing more to ask for.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] Yeah. Being healthy is the best.

TY: [Jpn.] Health is the most important.

MK: [Jpn.] Uh-huh. Yeah. I think so. If you are not healthy, you cannot do anything.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] Uh-huh. So fortunately my legs are still working without a problem. Although my brain is not good, my legs are working. So I am grateful.

TY: [Jpn.] Yeah.

MK: [Jpn.] I am grateful to my children and grateful to everybody. Thank you. Thank you very much. Yeah.

TY: [Jpn.] Well, then, thank you very much for your wonderful stories.

MK: [Jpn.] It's me who should thank. You spent precious time for me.

TY: [Jpn.] No. No. No.

MK: [Jpn.] I feel very sorry for you, and thank you very much.

TY: [Jpn.] Thank you very much.

MK: [Jpn.] It is me who should really thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much.

TY: [Jpn.] We enjoyed very much.

MK: [Jpn.] I thank you very much. Thank you.

TY: [Jpn.] Not at all.

MK: [Jpn.] It's not easy. You have a difficult job. Yeah.

AI: [Jpn.] Thank you very much.

TY: [Jpn.] Thank you very much.

MK: [Jpn.] Really, I should thank you.

<End Segment 84> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.