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MA: So when it came time for you to get married, you and Frank, did you go to Kansas then, or did you go out of state?

HC: We planned our wedding to be at McCormick Seminary in Chicago, because Illinois did not have that law. And so we were married in Chicago in July of 1959, and went right to North Dakota, where Frank had his first church. 'Cause I told Frank I wouldn't marry him until he had a job. [Laughs] I figured I could work until he had a job. And so after he was called to the church in Crosby, North Dakota, then we planned our wedding and were married in Chicago at McCormick Seminary, at the old McCormick Seminary, the new McCormick Seminary is in a different place. So my memories are at the old place, not with the new one.

MA: And then you went back to living in North Dakota at that time?

HC: Yeah, we, so in a way, we're still on our honeymoon because we moved, we went right from our wedding right to, our honeymoon was to go to North Dakota, and in a way, we've, we're continuing to be on our honeymoon all our life long, which has been fun.

MA: And you were teaching at that point, you said?

HC: Actually not. I didn't have a job yet, but I did ask in North Dakota about the possibility of substitute teaching because I belonged to a, I was invited to join a Federated Women's Club. The Presbyterian women, Presbyterian minister's wife always belonged to the, to this one particular Federated Women's Club, although there were others in town. And so I was kind of automatically invited. And I asked at the Federated Women's Club, the woman who was the principal of a grade school about substitute teaching, and she said, "Oh yes, we always need substitutes, and it's really nice to know that we have substitutes available." And so I went home and asked Frank, "What do you think about my substituting in school?" and he said that would be okay. So the next time I saw her I said, "Ida, what's the possibilities of my signing up to be a substitute teacher?" She says, "Oh, we don't need substitute teachers." So I thought, "Okay, I know what's going on here," so I, I just never even tried to go into teaching while we lived in North Dakota. We lived there for five years, and by then I had two children, too, by the time we left North Dakota. So Mary Kay and Steve were both born in North Dakota. Steve was just an infant when we left.

And so then when we moved to Illinois, then the superintendent of schools just lived a little ways down from us, and we started playing bridge together, which was fun, a nice way to get away from the children for an evening, for me. And so then I asked him about substitute teaching, and he just kind of didn't say too much, but then later on he told Frank that, "the preacher's wife shouldn't have to substitute teach." And I said, "Well, how come his wife is substitute teaching? His wife is teaching, and she's the superintendent's wife, isn't that keeping jobs in the family?" What's that called? There's a special name there, word. But... and so I didn't do that, but by then I was having Alan, our third child, so it wasn't a necessity for me to, to have something outside of the home to be doing.

MA: So why, why didn't the superintendent, do you think, want you to work?

HC: Race. He thought that the pastor's wife should be busy doing church work, I guess, but then I couldn't -- like his wife was busy doing teaching, but I thought it was race. And I didn't pursue it, it wasn't a big issue, 'cause I had plenty, I had enough to do with, with taking care of three children by now. And so when we moved to the other end of Illinois, in Madison, Illinois, then I, the principal of the grade school, elementary school, which was just two blocks away, lived, or came to church there. And one time I asked him about -- no, I thought, well, my experience has been that I am not acceptable as a public school teacher, so maybe I, so I could, maybe I could start a, have a nursery school, and have it at the church, so that people who, of the neighborhood can bring their children to the nursery school while they go to work. And so I, before getting into, looking into the legal things and financial things and all that, in regard to doing that, I asked the principal of the grade school, "Would there be any big problems with my starting a -- as far as the school system was concerned -- with my having a preschool at the church?" And he said, "Do you have, do you have credentials to teach?" I said, "Yes, I have credentials to teach secondary school." He said, "Oh, you should be teaching in school," because by then the baby boomers were coming to school. And so I, so he invited me to come to school and to interview, and he sent me a contract to teach. So I taught first grade there in Madison for five years. Although my credentials were in secondary education, that meant I had to eventually take classes to teach elementary, for which I did, I have all the credentials for teaching elementary school after five years, except practice teaching. So, so I really don't have, I don't have my degree to teach elementary school.

MA: But that was the first school that you actually taught?

HC: Correct. So that's where I get some of my pension, comes from the state of Illinois, the Teachers Pension Fund.

<End Segment 22> - Copyright ©2008 Densho and the Topaz Museum. All Rights Reserved.