Densho Digital Archive - Chiye Tomihiro Interview

<Begin Segment 1>

BF: This is a Densho interview of Ms. Chiye Tomihiro. The interviewer is Becky Fukuda. It is September 11, 1997, and we are on the UCLA campus for the Redress Conference. Okay. Chiye, let me ask you some quick background questions, to set sort of the context. What currently do you do for a living?

CT: I'm retired.

BF: And what were you, what did you retire from?

CT: I was an accountant.

BF: And are you married, single, do you have a family?

CT: Single.

BF: Okay, and where do you currently live?

CT: In Chicago.

BF: Chicago. And were you born in the Midwest?

CT: No, I was born in Portland, Oregon.

BF: Oh. And so how did you end up getting to Chicago?

CT: Well, like the rest of the people, Japanese Americans on the coast, I was removed and put in an assembly center first and then on to Minidoka, Idaho. And then I went to Denver -- first year of college in Denver -- and then transferred to the University of Wisconsin. And my family, in the meantime, left camp and moved to Chicago and after school I moved to Chicago and joined 'em.

BF: I see, I see. Kind of a long, circuitous route.

<Begin Segment 2>

BF: So you said that your family was interned at Minidoka. How old were you?

CT: Seventeen.

BF: You were seventeen. Could you tell me a little bit about what memories stick in your mind from the internment experience?

CT: Well, I think it's... the most traumatic thing is the fact that I had to leave Portland one month before I was to graduate high school. And that was really very, very sad, especially since we were only ten miles away, at the Portland Assembly Center, from my school. I'd think, "Why couldn't they just let me go to my graduation?" But needless to say, they wouldn't allow it, but that I think was the worst thing that happened to me. I think that the other thing that was difficult was that I was attending a high school where there were about, oh, maybe three or four Japanese. And when I went to camp, everybody else had friends already, and I was sort of lost in all of this. There were family friends that I had known, but it was not the same. You know, these kids go to high school together and everything, and they... it was, you were kind of an outsider, yeah.

BF: Did any of your high school friends -- since the school was so close -- did they come and visit you?

CT: Yes, they did. And that is another thing that, you know, for many, many years, until actually the commission hearings, is something I really never faced up to. I had repressed all of these hurts and you know, humiliation actually, of having those friends visit me there. Because they couldn't come in and so they would stand outside the barbed wire fence and I would be inside and I'd be talking to them. And you know, it was so humiliating. You know, it was like you were a prisoner, and here you hadn't done anything, but here you were a prisoner. And when I look back, I think, "Why was I embarrassed anyway?" I mean... but at the time I was. And I think that was the worst part. You know, I always tell people that the physical discomforts in the assembly center -- living in a, what was really an animal pen, you know one of those pens where they exhibited animals -- was certainly not very comfortable, and the lack of privacy with only partitions separating us, all of that, was not the thing that you really thought about at that age.

BF: Seventeen?

CT: Yeah. I mean, you remember it smelled terribly, as a result we spent all of our time outside and all. But I think that it was hard on the older people, the elderly, all that. But as a youngster, those things really weren't the things that bothered you so much.

BF: What were the things that...?

CT: Well, as I mentioned, the lack of privacy, of course.

BF: Right, at seventeen, young woman...

CT: Yes. And of course, if you're, you were reprimanded by your parents, the whole darn barn heard you, heard all this, that sort of thing. And the... well, I think it's having to eat in the mess hall with all these people, and, 'course, the food was horrible. [Laughs] But I think... but, you know, this whole business of having my high school friends come and visit me probably sticks out in my mind as really the worst part of it.

BF: Did they ask a lot of questions? Were they... or did they seem to just assume that this was the thing to do? Do you remember?

CT: Well, you know, as I said, I didn't even think about this for all those many, many years. The one thing I remember is that one of 'em brought me some cookies. And to tell you the truth, you know, at that age you're kind of awkward anyway, and when you're in that kind of a situation you really don't know what to say. And I could see that they probably didn't have anything to say. I'm sure that they didn't stand there and say, "Gee, I'm sorry this happened to you," or you know. I'm sure they didn't, but I, I can't recollect, I really cannot recollect. Uh-huh. So...

<Begin Segment 3>

BF: And you mentioned that your father was actually picked up by the authorities earlier? Did I get that?

CT: On December the 7th he was picked up by the FBI, and you know, talk about being naive, my father spoke English fluently and so we thought, "Gee, they needed him." They needed him to be an interpreter or something, because he had acted as an interpreter in many cases. He had graduated law school, and he was called in as an interpreter in a lot of legal cases, and so yeah, we just thought, "Oh, well, they needed him," and so here actually he was in Multnomah county jail. [Laughs]

BF: Was this something that just the kids thought, or was it something that your mother sort of let you believe, because she wanted to lessen the blow?

CT: Well, I'm not sure where we got that idea. Maybe we both thought that.

BF: Wow. And so how -- at what point did the family come back together?

CT: Well, I left Minidoka in April '43 to go to Denver U. My mother was there alone until next year, 1944, when my father was released from Santa Fe to return to Minidoka. And I thought that he had returned in June of '44, but I just looked it up at the Japanese American National Museum, and he actually returned in April of '44.

BF: Oh. Long separation.

<Begin Segment 4>

BF: Before we sort of leave the camp subject and that period, I understand you also had a pivotal role or kind of a role in Min Yasui's defiance.

CT: Yes, well, Min Yasui had his offices in my father's building and when he decided that he was going to test the constitutionality of the curfew, he asked me to call the police for him, and strangely enough, Min doesn't recollect that it was I that called. But anyway -- although he's dead now so I can't -- because I read the book recently, the Stubborn Twig about the Yasui family and I noticed that he said that his secretary called, but it was I. I do remember very distinctly doing this. I called up the police and they said, "Oh, it's probably a Chinese or Filipino."

BF: Playing a joke or something?

CT: Yeah, and they didn't pay any attention to me, and then, you know, he got tired of walking around, so he came back and (...) took a carton of cigarettes and a newspaper, and he went down to the Multnomah county jail and had himself arrested. But, you know, they released him before we were evacuated. And so when my mother and I were supposed to report to the assembly center, he drove us to the assembly center, dropped us off at the front, and then he took off and went back to his hometown of Hood River. And he waited for the marshals to pick him up and bring him into the assembly center.

BF: My goodness. [Laughs] Kind of ironic, isn't it?

CT: Yeah.

<Begin Segment 5>

BF: So you were saying that you had -- when you left camp, it sounds as though you were part of the National Student Relocation Program, is that...?

CT: Not, no, I didn't leave through that program, but the reason I went to Denver is because Mrs. Yasui and her two, I guess, three children were out in Denver and my mother felt that I should go to Denver where someone could keep an eye out on me. That's why I happened to go to Denver.

BF: Oh. And you left... why did you leave, why did your mother not leave with you at the same time?

CT: I don't think she was able to get clearance at that time, yeah.

BF: Do you, do you recall your feelings about leaving camp, and going to a place you've never been and leaving your mom and things like that?

CT: Well you know, it's funny, I left with two other people that were leaving for college. And so I had company leaving, and I, you know, I wasn't really that frightened. And of course, the fact that the Yasuis were there in Denver and I knew people -- I knew others that were there so it was... I knew that someone was going to be around if I needed them, and they had a place where I was supposed to do housework, you know, while I was going to school. And I had a place to live, so to speak. Which was a very horrible experience.

BF: Why?

CT: Oh, the woman was terrible, she was so cruel. A lot of us, you know, a lot of us that went as maids to homes were treated very, very badly. But she accused me of breaking a dish, which I never -- I know I didn't break -- and one night I came home rather late in the evening and she locked me out of the house. And so it was very unpleasant. And she didn't like the way I cleaned house. And so, but anyway, one day I just went, packed my clothes and left.

BF: So although you were, you knew the Yasuis there, you ended up -- you were living at this woman's house as her housekeeper, and cook and things like that.

CT: Uh-huh.

BF: Wow. And you were eighteen?

CT: (Eighteen.)

BF: Still seventeen. See, now that to me -- I hear so many Nisei tell me... Nisei women tell me about leaving camp and going off on their own to school, or to jobs and it just seems to me that it would take a tremendous amount of courage.

CT: Yeah, well, a lot of people talk about it, I think that we all felt a little insecure because here you are, you're going to the outside world, and suddenly you think, "Oh God, is somebody going to shoot me?" Or... but, you know, it didn't happen, it was okay. I mean, as I said, I had these two fellows with me, so I didn't feel that insecure.

<Begin Segment 6>

BF: We're going to skip a little bit ahead now, since we don't have a lot of time, unfortunately. You were -- you've been introduced at this conference a number of times as a long time JACLer. How did you, and when did you get involved with JACL?

CT: I think it was about 1950. And I first got involved by -- I was on a membership committee or something -- in those days we used to go house to house canvassing for members, you know. And that's how I initially got involved.

BF: And this in Chicago now?

CT: In Chicago, yes. Right.

BF: What attracted you to the organization?

CT: Well, I was always interested in the organization. And my father was very active in the community in Portland, and, I mean, it sort of, it was something I just kind of expected to do. So I was always interested in the community. And JACL seemed like the appropriate organization to join.

BF: And when you first got involved with JACL in Chicago, what sort of activities, or what was sort of the kind of the goals of the group at that time, as you recall?

CT: Well, that was just right in the midst of when they were trying to get the Walter-McCarran Act passed, and we had a anti-discrimination committee that was raising funds to lobby to get this bill passed. And you know what the Walter-McCarran Act is?

BF: Why don't you tell us a little bit further.

CT: The Walter-McCarran Act, well, the thing that we were interested in is the fact that our Issei parents would be able to become naturalized citizens, and this, of course, was very important. And also to change immigration laws, so that the Japanese could immigrate here. Well, I think one of the worst things was that if you were born in Canada, you had to come to the U.S. under a Japanese quota. You were not considered a Canadian. That was the kind of thing that this Walter-McCarran Act changed.

BF: So it sounds like the Chicago group was fairly political. Lot of the, it seems like a lot of the other JACL chapters at this time period were a little bit more social.

CT: Yeah. Well, we had social activities, too, but you know, we had a lot of strong leaders in Chicago at that time. Dr. Thomas Yatabe, he was, they always called him the grandfather of JACL. He was the first national president of the JACL.

BF: Oh, I didn't know that.

CT: Yeah, he was, he lived in Chicago. And people like that -- there were a number of outstanding people there. And we had a lot of good leadership and, you know, most of the people were single at that time, and had a lot of energy, and they were enthusiastic, and all these factors really helped and we had a big chapter at the time because --

BF: Oh, really?

CT: You know, there were about 25,000 people came to Chicago from the camps. But gradually, of course, they all went back to California, because they couldn't stand the weather. [Laughs] But there were a number of them still around at the time and so... yeah, we had a lot of energy, and we had a lot of activities, we had a national convention there in 1950, and many, many people coming to it.

<Begin Segment 7>

BF: So in the Chicago chapter, was it a fairly natural step into the redress movement? Did the chapter join it pretty easily, or was there a lot of discussion about whether or not...

CT: Well, there was. There was discussion and there were very few of us involved, actually active on the committee. I think that the older Nisei were kind of reluctant to get involved. I think that they were afraid to rock the boat and it took a long time for them to really come around. I remember when I started the redress committee in Chicago, I asked a number of our prominent Nisei to be on the advisory committee of the thing. And although they lent their names, they didn't actually get involved, you know, really get down to do the work, so it was only a couple of us that really went out and beat the bushes, so to speak.

BF: And what, what got you really committed to this particular cause? Do you remember a person or event or something that said, "Okay, I'm going to spend some time?" [Laughs]

CT: Well, I think that the commission hearings really moved me. And I, see, I was a witness chair. I started out first by being the witness chair, and I was the person who went out to get the witnesses to testify. And as I got more and more involved at this, well, I became more and more interested, especially when you heard about a lot of the... heard the stories of what happened to so many people. And the stories were so moving and all. And I remember talking to this friend of mine from Portland, who was an orphan and she was only fifteen years old and she had two younger brothers. And this sad story about how her older sister -- who was in a TB san. -- died, well, at the time that they were going to be evacuated. And you know, you hear all these stories and then you think, "Oh my God," and you get more and more into it.

BF: What was that like trying to get people to agree to testify?

CT: Well, it wasn't easy. A lot of the people were willing to write testimony, but getting them to get out there and talk about it, it was really difficult. And so when we finally had a group of people ready to testify, we had sessions, you know. I mean, a lot of people talk about having their mock hearings and things like that. Well,we had television monitors, and we had a psychiatric nurse helping us, and we had sessions where we would get together and we only had five minutes, you know, to testify. So we practice in front of the monitor, but the first time we got together and we had small groups, I mean, it was so emotional. And I remember, I myself, how I just broke down and I wept I couldn't talk. And you saw these grown men doing the same thing. So, you know, this practice was absolutely necessary, because we wouldn't have been able to speak coherently. We... but by practicing repeatedly, I mean, we were able to go out and make some sense of what we were saying, but it was... but it was good for our community. It was really good for the community.

<Begin Segment 8>

BF: What do you think it accomplished?

CT: Well, I think that -- well, you know, so many people came to the hearings and you know they heard what other people had gone through, and I think they recalled what they had gone through. And I think for the first time they faced up to what had actually had happened to them. Everybody had suppressed all these feelings. Yeah. And, I mean, even though they may have faced up to in their hearts, to this day there are many people that can't talk about it.

BF: Yeah. That's what the hearings -- still amaze me because, yeah, like most others, there's many people in my family that still can't talk about it.

CT: Yeah. And you know that's why we're having intergenerational dialogue and things trying to get people to talk. We're still trying to...

BF: Still plugging away.

CT: Plugging away, trying, but yeah.

BF: What did the, what did the nurse do? How did the nurse help in this process of...

CT: Well, she would, you know, kind of counseled us and tried to comfort us.

BF: As a group. So she would help people to work through their feelings?

CT: Oh yes, and their grief, whatever.

BF: That seems like a very sensitive way to -- I mean, did a lot of the other groups think about those issues? Bring in counselors or have nurses?

CT: I don't know. As far as I know, we're the only ones.

BF: That's the first I've heard. And it just like yeah, that would be really, really nice to have that available.

CT: Well, she happened to be on the JACL board at the time, too, and that made a difference.

BF: So she was also Nikkei and so...

CT: Yeah, she was a Sansei woman, yeah.

BF: Oh, wow.

<Begin Segment 9>

BF: And so did the -- so it sounds as though the commission work sort of got you more involved in the redress movement.

CT: Yeah, then you know, because I was involved in getting the witnesses together and then the media was giving us all this attention, the radio and TV, we were asked to appear on TV talk shows and whatever. And we were interviewed by the newspapers. And the commission members as well and people like Min Yasui, he was there. And he's this very good talker, so he was always asked to appear on these shows and all. But as I talked, with being interviewed and all, I got accustomed to talking to people about the issue, and as a result, since then I -- people are always asking me to go to schools to talk to children. And I've appeared on all kinds of programs and things, and so now it's like a broken record. [Laughs]

BF: Now, when you first started really getting involved in this big way, was your family and friends, were they real supportive? Or were there -- 'cause this is still sort of early in the movement -- I'm sure people weren't exactly sure this would work.

CT: Yeah, no, I would have to say that a lot of people were not that supportive. My mother especially. Gosh, she thought I was crazy.

BF: What did she say to you?

CT: She said, "Oh, you're wasting your time." She said, "Nothing's ever going to happen." And so...

BF: Do you remember trying to convince her, or were you, did you just kind of...

CT: Oh, yeah. Well, I said I wouldn't be doing it if I didn't believe that it was possible. But I think deep down in her heart, she was proud of me. You know, she may have said all this, but I think deep down she was.

BF: I'm sure there's a feeling that she didn't want you to get disappointed or hurt.

CT: Of course, of course. I'm sure of that.

BF: Did she end up testifying?

CT: No. My mother didn't testify.

<Begin Segment 10>

BF: So as, there's this huge coverage of the hearings and as the Nikkei community started coming out for the hearings, did you notice a change in the attitude, people getting, I don't know, more open about redress, or their experiences in camp, and then more supportive of redress?

CT: Oh, yeah. And I think a lot of people, because of the hearings, you know, started to get involved and trying to help us get letters. And you know, they started to do some of these things that they weren't doing before. So I keep saying that that was the thing that gave our whole movement momentum.

BF: The hearings?

CT: Yeah.

BF: It kind of brought people together.

CT: Yes, it did.

BF: What about its impact on the non-Nikkei community? With all this press coverage, do you feel as though, you know you changed any hearts and minds among the non-Nikkei?

CT: Oh yes, absolutely. Absolutely and I -- many, many people mentioned it to me, and they said, "Gee, we didn't know what had happened to you," and you know, that's the thing. I have to tell you this. It's because when I first went to Chicago and to the University of Wisconsin, people would say, "Where are you from?" I never told them I was in camp. I was too ashamed to tell them that. And, but after this happened, of course, after the commission hearings, well, since everybody knew about it, then I was able to say, well, yeah, and describe to them what the situation was and what conditions we lived under and things like that. So it was... it kind of opened it all up for me.

BF: So you really changed a bit yourself during this whole process?

CT: Oh, absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, it was a catharsis. Uh-huh.

<Begin Segment 11>

BF: So after you were the witness chair, what became your new responsibilities or your additional responsibilities for the redress?

CT: Well, then I became chair of the redress committee. Actually, I was a co-chair with a Jewish fellow, who's married to a Nisei friend of mine. But you know, after a while it -- he wasn't too keen on monetary redress, and so I ended up doing most of it alone. He'd help me by helping me carry the slide projector or something like that, but he didn't do the talking or anything like that. And I also put a slide show together with all these pictures of camp and the evacuation, you know, there were a number of photos available. So I put a slide show together, because I felt that pictures can -- it's like a thousand words. People, when people saw this they reacted, and so I always took this little slide show with me and talked to groups.

BF: So as the, as the chair in Chicago of the redress movement for JACL, was there a different strategy employed in the Midwest, as opposed to say on the West Coast, where there's a much larger group of Asians?

CT: Well, yeah, there had to be, because we had to ask other groups to help. And like being a group like the American Jewish Committee, and we had an Illinois ethnic consultation, and churches where Nisei were members, I mean, all of these groups -- we had to ask them for help. And that's the way we got support of many of the people.

BF: By building these coalitions?

CT: Yes, yes.

BF: So do you, in, kind of in retrospect, do you feel as though it, maybe in the Midwest there was a little bit more educating going on of non-Nikkei, in particular?

CT: Oh yes, absolutely. Well, you know in 1967, I did this exhibit of twenty-five years since the evacuation. I put this exhibit together, and I had some of the artifacts of things that people made in camp, and photos, Toyo Miyatake's photos that he did. You know, he took those pictures with a camera he made inside, inside camp, because cameras were contraband. But I had those photos, I had Mine Okubo's cartoons of the camps and then I thought, "Gee, it'd be interesting if we showed the papers, newspapers." So I went to the library and here's this little article -- that big -- saying "120,000 Japanese..." that's all. That's all that was in the paper.

BF: That was the sole announcement of the internment.

CT: Yeah, right, right.

BF: So, you had your work cut out for you.

CT: But it was interesting. I loved doing exhibits, I was, I did a Chicago supplement to the Strength and Diversity exhibit -- you've heard of that exhibit -- and then I also did the Chicago supplement to the More Perfect Union Smithsonian exhibit we had. That's what I love to do.

BF: So the work goes on.

CT: Oh yes. Oh yes. We're plugging away all the time.

<Begin Segment 12>

BF: So, tell me a little bit about the lobbying that you had to do. And by lobbying, I mean, in the community -- trying to get community coalitions built and trying to change hearts and change minds. Did you, did you end up sort of having a strategy or a tactic for how to get, how to bring people on board?

CT: Well, you know, I think if you, you work with what you've got. Let's put it that way. And you know, getting Congressman Porter, John Porter, it happened that the Akis invited me to come and speak to their church, and having this, it was -- people talk about timing. I mean, here this man was sitting in the audience, who was a fundraiser for Congressman Porter. And, you know, just like that, he became a supporter. You know, these are the kind of things that just happen. Yeah.

BF: And you never know who's gonna be out there.

CT: That's right. That's right. You went out and spoke to groups, and you never knew what was going to happen talking to groups, because you were never sure of who was in the audience. And then some people, you know, once in a while you'd go someplace and talk. And this man or woman would come up to you later and say, "You know, I'm going to get my church to write letters for you," or... these are the kind of things that you depend upon.

BF: Do you have any memorable anecdotes about meeting up with, let's say, the opposition? Where you had some people come up who weren't quite so supportive?

CT: Well, you know, one of the things that I meant to say when I was talking this morning was that, in a way we had an advantage because we didn't have any Lillian Bakers in Chicago or around the Midwest, because they didn't, most of the people didn't know anything was going on so therefore we didn't have that element. But I went to speak to some firemen once, believe it or not, and there was one man, he raised his hand and he said, "But you people punished," no, he said, "You were very cruel to our prisoners of war." See, there you go, where they don't differentiate between the Japanese enemy and the Japanese Americans. So you do occasionally run across something like that. But you know, it's kind of amazing how those situations were few and far between.

BF: So it was a real different process, more educating than sort of beating the opposition?

CT: Yeah.

<Begin Segment 13>

BF: I wanted to ask you to sort of reflect back on some of the personal, I guess, growth or lessons that you think are a result of your involvement in the redress movement. How do you think it changed you personally?

CT: Well, I think I, actually I think it did a great deal for me. I mean, as I mentioned before, I was reluctant, I wanted to be all-American and you know, I just wanted to be a part of a society where I wasn't different or whatever. I mean, actually, we were kind of -- the WRA when we left camp, told us we should be unobtrusive. Don't make waves and all of this -- we were told this -- and don't congregate, so we, most of us we were very quiet. And then we, well, like me, I was going to college and I tried to just keep my nose in the books and you know. So when I started to get involved and accept what had happened to me during the war, I became much more outspoken. I also became much more sensitive to other minorities' plight and I volunteer now, even now, for the American Friends, the Quaker organization. And I think that certainly made a better person of me, I mean, to some extent. My friends call me Barbara Streisand. [Laughs]

BF: Do you sing as well? [Laughs]

CT: No, I wish I could. [Laughs] But, you know, they think that I'm out there waving the flag all the time, which I really am not. But compared to my friends, I guess they really think of me as being very liberal. So yeah, but...

<Begin Segment 14>

BF: Well, sort of related to that -- and this would be unfortunately my last question for you -- I was reading your conference responses to the questions that they provided, and your last sentence, really, I thought was very eloquent, and I wanted to have you tell me a little bit more about it. You wrote, "The legacy of the evacuation experience remains, but the legacy of redress is not yet clear to me." Could you explain a little bit about what you meant by that?

CT: Well, I think it was kind of interesting, in the discussion group right now -- the small group discussions -- I think that we really talked a great deal about, "What are we going to do after this?" And you know, everybody seemed to be so concerned about that. I mean, are we going to just sit back and rest and think, "Well, gee, we won this great victory and so now we're all finished, let's just retire and forget about the rest of the world, the rest of our concerns," and that really concerns me. And that's why I'm hoping that there's more to this legacy than what we have so far. That's what I meant by what I said.

BF: And you also, you preceded it by saying, "The legacy of the evacuation experience remains." Now, people can take that many different ways. What were you thinking when you wrote that?

CT: Well, I'm thinking about the heartache and the wounds and all that stuff that people have repressed and it's still there. It's still there.

BF: So unlike some people who may think that redress was supposed to be a cure-all for it. Those wounds you don't believe...

CT: No, not at all, not at all, because you see evidence of that every day. Especially since we've had this dialogue going, in which people come out and when they start talking. And they still are very emotional, you know, and once they start talking their voices shake. So, no, there's a lot there. And I wish we could just bring it all out.

BF: One big session again.

CT: Yeah. Uh-huh. So yeah, and I think that the -- what the effect that it has had on our children.

BF: What do you think has been the effect on the Sansei and Yonsei generation?

CT: Well, mostly frustration. They're frustrated that their parents cannot talk about it. And they say, "Why is it that all they talk about is what fun they had, they had dances and things like that." And they're very frustrated, because they really want their parents to tell them how they felt and all that, and it's just not happening in a lot of families.

BF: Yeah, to this day.

CT: Yeah, and that concerns me, but I'm hoping -- before all the Nisei die. Yeah.

BF: Well, like I said, that was my last question. But was there anything else you wanted to say or...

CT: Thank you. No, I'm very happy that you're doing this.

BF: Well, thank you. And thank you for sitting with us and talking. We appreciate it.

CT: Okay.