Densho Digital Archive
Densho Visual History Collection
Title: Hitoshi H. Kajihara Interview
Narrator: Hitoshi H. Kajihara
Interviewer: Tom Ikeda
Location: University of California, Los Angeles
Date: September 11, 1997
Densho ID: denshovh-khitoshi-01

<Begin Segment 1>

TI: Today we are doing a Densho interview with Hitoshi Harry Kajihara. The date is September 11, 1997. We are located on the campus of UCLA attending the Voices of Japanese American Redress Conference. The interviewer is Tom Ikeda and the videographer is Matt Emery. Harry, I'm gonna start the interview. Before we get to the issue of redress, I wanted to actually get some background information, and I thought a good place to start is to talk about your personal experiences right about the time of the outbreak of the war. So why don't we start with what happened to you after Japan had attacked Pearl Harbor.

HK: Yes. On December 7th, Sunday, I remember very vividly and that was a long time ago, actually. I'm about seventy now, but I remember I was shocked. And I was going to Griffin grade school. It's a small school, three classrooms and I didn't know what was gonna happen to me so I was really apprehensive. And I went to school on Monday and the principal immediately called an assembly of all the students and she said that I was -- there were three other Japanese Americans going to this school in a rural area, Oyster Bay, Washington -- and she said, "Now, we're good citizens," that no one was going to be critical, or derogative, or physically... and so I felt very relieved. So that was for December 7, 1941. And I wasn't incarcerated until June 1942, and actually, I was in such a rural, rural community that I didn't think I was going. In fact, there was, we were about the last ones, I guess, removed, you know. And so we did leave in June. And one additional thing is that there was a Caucasian family who had no children, but when I went to school I used to go lunch to this, actually grocery store. So they wanted to adopt me for the duration. But as far as the government's concerned, I think I was a threat to security, so I was incarcerated. And I was thirteen years old that time.

TI: So this family wanted to adopt you, you mentioned they wanted to adopt you? And that was to keep you there instead of being, going to the camps, incarcerated?

HK: Right, correct.

TI: That was interesting, do you still stay in touch with these people?

HK: No, they're deceased.

TI: Okay.

<End Segment 1> - Copyright © 1997 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 2>

TI: Okay, you mentioned you were thirteen years old. You're a boy, thirteen, what memories -- when you think back to being thirteen and this was happening -- what memories sort of really stick in your mind about this period?

HK: You know, I was a fairly good baseball player. And normally seventh and eighth graders made the team, but I made the team when I was in the sixth grade. And so... and we all wanted to get into the junior varsity in Olympia High School. That was a goal of all these small schools all over, you know, to make the team in high school. But so that's my memory, the fact that I couldn't make, I couldn't play, 'cause I was taken away. And when I was in camp I still vividly remember that, you know... here's the funny things that you miss, first of all, I missed the neon lights -- pitch black in camp. I missed the hamburgers and hot dogs, and then most of all I missed my friends, I missed my friends back home. In fact...

TI: These were your Caucasian friends that you missed?

HK: My Caucasian friends, yeah, back in...

TI: Just going back a little bit to that, I'm curious, you mentioned baseball, what position did you play?

HK: Oh, I played shortstop.

TI: Okay. So you were one of the better players.

HK: And if I jump, you know... I was on the Tule Lake -- the camp was Tule lake -- and we were on the All-City. There was 25,000 people in camp and that was a pretty large city in California -- population-wise. And we were on the championship team of the camp and I played shortstop then. So, so it was a loss for Olympia high school. [Laughs]

TI: Right. Well, I was thinking -- because of sports and I played a lot of sports and I know there's a lot of camaraderie -- how did your, especially your Caucasian teammates, sort of react to you leaving or having to leave? Did you have any interaction with them?

HK: Well, they couldn't understand, and they also couldn't understand why I couldn't just leave. But we were still thirteen, twelve and thirteen, so you know, there wasn't any other reactions, I guess. But this Wilbur Cane wrote me a letter for one year, that is periodically perhaps. And I kept every letter, I read every letter. And you know, but after a year when we were separated we have not much in common to talk about. So the letters gradually decreased and pretty soon I was cut off from the outside world completely. And, but I... you know, the thing that I missed the most in camp was my friends, there's no question. And I pictured even them playing baseball, and I was not on the team and so on.

<End Segment 2> - Copyright © 1997 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 3>

TI: So you're thirteen, you're a boy, those are formative years. If you were to try to sort of summarize the camp experience, how would you summarize or characterize your experiences in camp?

HK: [Pauses] Well, that's... characterize...

TI: Let me ask you, how long were you at Tule Lake?

HK: Yeah. I was in Tule Lake for three and a half years and released in 1945, December 1945. It was not, well, it's hard to recollect, you know. I don't want to overdramatize because we were kids, so I really didn't appreciate what we were being subjected to, the injustice and all, until, of course, much later. What I remember is we had good teachers. Mostly they were Quakers. We went to school... there was no school for about, I would say about eight months to a year, I guess, when we went in and then they started school and then we went continuously. I went to both English school, and Japanese language school in Tule Lake. So I was taking about ten subjects and still had a little time to play softball. It wasn't hardball in camp, we would only play softball. I think, as I recollect now, I think camp was good to the extent that my teachers kept telling me that we were good Americans and that we should go on and show what good Americans we were. And I think that registered and so I've always felt that I must do much better than my competition. And so I think I studied hard, always studied hard. And one thing I want to say, the school in Tule Lake was wonderful and I will give you one example. A fellow classmate of mine, his name is Richard Tanaka, and we both were in the same class in camp and at Richmond High School where we went one semester before we went to Berkeley. And when you went to Berkeley he got all A's except one, he got a B in ROTC. Now, I didn't do that well, but I managed to get out. But that tells you the kind of school we had.

<End Segment 3> - Copyright © 1997 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 4>

TI: So three and one half years in Tule Lake. After Tule Lake, what did you do? You sound like you went to another high school in Richmond and then to Berkeley.

HK: I went to one semester in Richmond Union High School and then I went to University of California in Berkeley. And I studied engineering, electrical engineering, because what I really wanted to become was a math professor. And so, but the only reason I couldn't -- and incidentally I want to say I wanted to be in a school environment forever, I loved school, you know -- but first of all, I know I had to get a Ph.D., if you wanted to become a professor. But I wasn't accepted, because in the liberal arts that's where they give the degree in math and I didn't have foreign language because I was taking ten courses and they didn't accept Japanese at that time. So college of engineering was the only school that would accept me without a foreign language. So that's how I got, so accidentally I became an electrical engineer.

<End Segment 4> - Copyright © 1997 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 5>

TI: Okay, let's move on now to more recent times. I want to ask you, what were you doing when you got involved in the redress?

HK: Right, this is 1980. Ventura JACL chapter was dormant for seventeen years, and I felt that we needed, we needed an active JACL. So my wife and I reactivated the JACL. Before that, however, I was coming to the San Fernando Valley JACL. But I was just... they had great programs, but that's all I went. I didn't hold any offices because the valley is about sixty miles from where I live. So that's how I started. And then I attended a convention -- Gardena convention in 1982. And that's what really opened my eyes to what was going on. And then Min Yasui -- and I consider Min Yasui "Father of Redress," but maybe I should say 'my father redress,' because of the other fathers. But he came -- and you know Min Yasui, he was the one that defied the curfew -- so he came and he came to Santa Barbara, Santa Barbara installation dinner. I think that was in 1983 or '82, I can't remember. But anyhow, there was not a single dry eye, you know. He related his experience in his pursuit for redress and there was not a single dry eye.

TI: And so for you --

HK: And so that was it, that was it, plus the fact that I believe I always had a latent anger that people like President Roosevelt and other people of power can do these things and they can get away with it. So that's when it really gelled, and that's when everything came out, you know, which was there. That would make me... gosh, 1930 to 19' -- I really got involved in JACL about 50 something, '52, '53. So I was rather an oldster. But that did it.

TI: So that was a real defining moment for you?

HK: No question in my mind. I was so... I heard him speak about all his experiences and I knew I had to help Min. To get involved in redress and do whatever I could.

<End Segment 5> - Copyright © 1997 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 6>

TI: And so you said you really got involved, threw yourselves into primarily JACL activities. Why don't you talk a little bit more about your progressions through the JACL at this point.

HK: In 1980, 1982, I attended the convention in Gardena -- national convention. And at that time I became the Pacific Southwest District Fundraising Chair. And then I became a Governor, Pacific Southwest district, two years afterwards. And that would make it 1986, I believe. And then simultaneously I became LEC -- that's Legislative Education Committee -- fundraising chair in 19-, 1985, or something like that. And then I became national president in 1986. So it was kind of, I was kind of a latecomer.

TI: But it sounds like your progression was really accelerated...

HK: Condensed.

TI: ...condensed, especially with and through the fundraising efforts.

HK: Yes. And that was the reason that... tou know, is that, there was a money shortage. And in particular there was some dissentions, because we were on a pledge program before I got involved. And Pacific Southwest District was a district that had a lot of ideas, but if you go back to the convention I remember very vividly hearing from other districts that, you know, we're doing a lot of talkin' -- that is, we're offering amendments and motions and so forth -- but you really are in arrears, 'cause we hadn't met our pledge. And actually in 1982, we go back to the minutes, John Tateishi, he was our redress director, and he's saying, you know, he's going to have to close shop because we only had about $20,000 left, the budget was over $300,000. And the pledge, we only raised a $100,000. And he had told his people that if we don't come up with any money somehow that we're going to have to close shop. And he told his workers -- and these people are here today, Carole Hayashino and John Tateishi.

<End Segment 6> - Copyright © 1997 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 7>

TI: At this point, were you a fundraising chair or were you being drafted to...

HK: No, I was drafted. One month after the Gardena convention, our Governor, Cary Nishimoto, said to me, "Would you become a fundraising chair?" of the district, that is. So I said, "Okay." And it's kinda funny, because he kept on talking over the phone, and I had said, "Yes," to him. But he didn't expect me to say anything, because that was a tough job. So that was kind of funny, I guess, at that time.

TI: And what experience did you have with fundraising before this point?

HK: I had raised some money for like Warren Furutani one year. And then I know when Mineta was going to be honored down here... This is the Democrats from Los Angeles area, and I think this is true, that I raised about half of the money that the Democratic organization... I guess they call it the Democratic organization of southern California something, but I worked in Oxnard area and raised money. So this is the first time I got to meet Mineta, and in fact, I didn't meet him, it was over a phone line, I think, but his video, and so, and afterwards I met Mr. Mineta.

TI: So you had a track record of some successful fundraising efforts, people knew about that.

HK: Not big ones, but I did raise limited number of, amount.

TI: Right.

<End Segment 7> - Copyright © 1997 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 8>

TI: So they asked you to be a fundraiser. And why don't you talk a little bit more about your strategy or tactics to raise money for the JACL at that point.

HK: First of all, you have to recognize the donors. And you have to, well, what I did was I held monthly meetings. And one of the things I think, since I was commuting from Oxnard, I think it kind of -- and the meeting was in Los Angeles I should say, which is anywhere from an hour and a half to two hours' ride, depending on traffic sometimes it's three hours one way -- and so I think that was one of the things that I did this fairly conscientiously. And so that helped me, I guess, to progress up the ladder. But, regular meetings. And then one of the things I did was, it was a pledge -- chapter pledge chart. Which I not only, I put in the Pacific Citizen. And some people called it the 'shame chart,' but what that showed was it showed... it's just like the United Way, where they show the thermometer, well, this was a chart with the chapters in and you had goals, 25 percent, 50 percent, and darkened if you met. And so when I became chair at the Pacific Southwest District, our pledge was $37,500. I raised it the first year, raised it the second year and actually the person who donated... one family donated $7,500. That's why it kind of helped 'cause it was still difficult to get money. And then the third year was when somebody else took over. I then became the national LEC fundraising chair.

TI: It sounds like a real success.

HK: But based on that, I think that they, Min Yasui said, "You know, were gonna need somebody." And there wasn't anybody that... well, I guess there wasn't anybody -- I think I just did it. I said, "Okay Min, I'm gonna be the LEC fundraising chair and formulate from scratch and set up a structure," you know, where you raise the money.

TI: Before we get to that part, I want to just follow up on a question. You mentioned earlier that some people called the fact that you sort of publicized the goals and what people were raising as sort of the 'shame chart,' I'm curious about that term and how that came about.

HK: Well, because if you see your chart and some people have made -- some chapters, I should say, raised a hundred percent already early on -- and here you're a great big chapter and maybe you met ten percent of your pledge. So there was a competition, a forced competition. So 'shame chart,' because shame if you didn't, you know, do your share. And, of course, we had regular meetings. And the chapter representatives -- mostly we had about sixteen chapters coming regularly because like Arizona, the chapter of the Pacific Southwest and they couldn't come and Las Vegas was one also -- but consistent meetings, you know. And what they did was they shared ideas on how they, their strategies for raising money and everybody shared that. And, of course, I passed on information on what they were doing at the national level, and so I think that helped. It created a desire to, you know, "Let's get this thing done." And, you know, money is crucial, 'cause there's no other thing... you know, a project could be a wonderful project, but if you don't have money you're not going to make it.

<End Segment 8> - Copyright © 1997 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 9>

TI: Okay, let's move now to the LEC, and your willingness to head up the fundraising for that. Why don't you start talking about that, sort of the situation that you walked into, their need for cash and what you accomplished.

HK: Okay. It begins at the at the... this is once again at the Honolulu convention in 1980... This is '84, that's what it was. Yeah, '84. And the newly elected president, Sato, asked me to make a presentation to about four hundred delegates on the plan. And this is very important, that you need to communicate to the people, and I think that was partially the reason for success was there was four hundred delegates there who -- this is 1984 -- who saw the plan. The plan basically was to get a number of what we called, 'prime solicitors,' and that was to give two thousand dollars over a period of five years. And we were going to solicit a hundred and something, the total anyhow was three hundred thousand dollars per year. And we wanted personal contacts made, not letters, somebody had to go out. And so each of the chapters were assigned to identify a number of these prime solicitors. If you were a small chapter you identify, you know, six, and if your a large, thirty, and so on. And I think what we did was... so the whole structure, of about... the whole plan of who would go out and solicit money, and then the banking, and the depositing, and all the forms, and I came up a form, a form that they could mail if they wish, leave it with them, and so on. So it was the total ball of wax. [Laughs]

<End Segment 9> - Copyright © 1997 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 10>

TI: And when you thought about going out for these fairly large contributions of two thousand dollars or more, and you started doing that, what were the, what kind of resistance did you get from people to contribute those amounts?

HK: Well, they were very hesitant, you know. They didn't want to tell you. Well, I myself got to a point where people didn't, you know, they would cross the street when they would see me. And I'm sure that that's the experience of other people, that were called prime solicitors. Cherry Kinoshita, she raised the second largest amount of money for this whole program. Grace Uyehara was number one. And I'm sure that they met the same experience. 'Cause, and people would say, "Okay, we'll donate," and I could go back and you never hear from them. And the chapter sponsor collects these sponsors, programs, to raise money.

TI: Well, do you think people's reluctance to donate was because they didn't believe in the project itself or the goals of the project, or are they just reluctant to donate in general? What do you think was going on?

HK: Well I, I think both. People are reluctant to (being locked in to) donate, and they have their own, own places they like to donate to. They have their own... so, and I think a lot of people, I believe, didn't think this was going to fly. They were just, you know, it'd be just be money wasted. I can't tell, you know, but whether that's what they thought. But for whatever reason, it was very difficult to raise the money, I should say that. That's why I always look at your five hundred thousand dollar Microsoft or other things out there and say, "Oh boy." 'Cause ours was... one of the things we wanted, the board members contributed a thousand dollars up front. And incidentally, we wrote our -- Min and myself, we took out a two-page Pacific Citizen, two sheets, I should say -- an insert for launching the fund drive. And I think, I attribute the success, that we accounted for every penny, that is, with the periodic report on income and expenditures. That's critical. You have to tell the people -- particularly if you're depending on donations -- who donated. And I wrote about twenty articles during my -- in the Pacific Citizen, that is -- with the feed back, and the status. And also we had this donor's listing. And in fact I have one there. It lists everyone of the people who donated. And we computerized this thing, Bacon Sakatani kept the computer, but the money came to myself and I manually transcribed off of each of these listings, donors and addresses and so on.

TI: With all this work, I mean, how successful was the program?

HK: Well, under my chairmanship we raised half a million dollars, and that was over two years, a period of two years. And then Dr. Mae Takahashi from Fresno followed me because I became national president in 1986. And we raised another half a million, and these are not big companies. There... and I think it was successful to the extent that this funded the LEC operation totally. And so they were in office -- we had a Washington, D.C. office -- and that was from, let's see, '80... oh incidentally, I should say that we started with twenty three thousand dollars. That is... you know, JACL couldn't engage in lobbying. So at the Honolulu convention they said, "Okay, we're going to turn this lobbying effort to the LEC of JACL." Twenty three -- no, not, twenty-three hundred dollars, because we had a donation of about that, or thirty-two hundred, something like that from the floor, and that's what we started with. And I consider the whole operation for the, from that period to redress, was 1988, so that would be about four years, I guess -- funded totally. And the staff, maintained a staff in Washington, D.C. is critical. In fact, I think that's the reason that JACL... a lot of people, in fact, different organizations, worked on it -- but then you really had to have a network of chapters throughout the country so that they could lobby their congressperson.

<End Segment 10> - Copyright © 1997 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 11>

TI: So after successfully raising half a million dollars, you then transitioned to more an executive role with the JACL. Can you tell me, sort of, your move there and how that came about?

HK: Well, I ran for office for national presidency and I won by three votes, and at the Chicago convention in 1986. And we totally put our effort into redress, and I think under my presidency, I think that the goal and the work of all staff and volunteers was redress strictly. I mean, there was no... this was important and we had to do it. Because so many Nisei were -- older Niseis were dying off. And so it become a number one thing to pursue and no question, and anybody that had a question on it... [laughs]

TI: In those two years under your presidency, what were the major obstacles or challenges for JACL at that point regarding redress?

HK: Well, it was to get the Congress, enough congresspeople to support it. And that was tough because a lot of them still didn't know about Japanese Americans. And my personal feeling is if we didn't have those Nikkei congressman, this would never come to pass. And if I can just cite one example, you know, just about a month ago, Senator Torricelli from New Jersey -- and he's on this hearing, the fundraising -- not the fundraising, the, the hearings they're having right now in the Senate. And that he made the following statement, that he cautioned those, the senators up there, that they must not broad brush and give the whole Asian a bad name just because a few Asians got involved in this illegal contribution act. But you know, and he based that on his, the Kefauver hearings -- where the Italian Americans were broad brushed, that hearing had to do with the Mafia. Now the thing is, it was later, reporter dug up, that he would have to be five days old to have heard the Kefauver hearing, okay? So Sunday, all these political talk people (had a) field day joshing Toricelli. The thing is, but there is no Japanese American or Asian commentator. Because if I was on these Sunday talk shows, I would have stressed the important part of the point that he was making, not joshing him. But not one, no one mentioned. So my point is -- and there is no Asian Americans on the talk shows on Sundays. Consequently if it wasn't for those congressmen, this issue would never have been taken up, is my belief. So I think we owe them, and the veterans, the veterans, you know, the 442nd people, it's those two things.

TI: And so you recognized that it was a shared commonality, I mean, some of the experiences the Italian community went through and for him to have that sensitivity to sort of also direct that or share that with the Japanese or Asian communities.

HK: Well, he didn't want, he didn't want those people to give the broad brushing, give the whole Asian a bad name just because there was a few, you know. Because that's what he said that they did when Kefauver held the hearing against the Mafia way back, so the Mafia and Italians so the whole Italian Americans, now, there a bunch a crooks. So that's the point, the point is but they just, they didn't emphasize his point, but they just joshed him because he would have to be five days old.

<End Segment 11> - Copyright © 1997 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 12>

TI: Okay, Harry, I now I want to bring you up to date, to actually today, and for you to look back in hindsight and to think if... when you think of what happened with redress, whether or not you would have thought there should have been a different way of going about the whole process?

HK: No, I think that was the right way. There's no... would have been the same thing. I think, you know, in regards to, there were some people who didn't like to go in the commission route. But that commission enabled us to have this government issued document saying that an injustice was done. And so, for example, just picture the, we asking for $20,000, or whatever it is, that would, the Congress would never buy anything like that. But if the government says, "Yes, we did something wrong," then... so we have the document forever, that justice denied document. I'm so overjoyed, because there it is -- a hundred years from now, people that get involved in this thing will refer to it. And so, no other way, this is it, the correct way.

<End Segment 12> - Copyright © 1997 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 13>

TI: The final question I have is, you've dedicated a large part of your life on the JACL and the passage of the Civil Liberties Act. When you now think about the passage and what has happened since then, do you think that we've accomplished the goals of the redress movement?

HK: Yes. I think we have, because never again the U.S. government will incarcerate a certain ethnic minority. And the reason they won't do that is because it costs them money. I don't know that the attitude, the discriminatory attitude has changed. I just heard some congressman making snide remarks in this recent hearing. And so I think they're insensitive and I don't think that's ever going to change. And I think the Sanseis and the Yonseis are going to meet the same kind of discrimination, perhaps not so overt, but then they'll be able to contend with that. But one thing they won't do, is they're not going to put anybody in incarceration center like they did the Japanese Americans. And, you know, I'd like to say that... just one thing, final thing is that, you know, in an odd way, we were the chosen ones, because I think we wrote a page in history -- U.S. history. And it was a hard way, but I think that we have really contributed to the betterment of a "more perfect union." One little sentence, not even a page, 'cause very short history. And I feel real good about that and I think that's just... and I also feel, I'm appreciative of the Sanseis and Yonseis, but I think also that I think the Sanseis and Yonseis feel proud of what the Niseis did. And that's a great feeling, because this is something I don't think at the beginning people ever thought we could ever do this, I mean, redress. Isn't that a wonderful thing that was done?

<End Segment 13> - Copyright © 1997 Densho. All Rights Reserved.